DOJ Pushes For “Citizenship” Question On 2020 Census

ProPublica reports:

The Justice Department is pushing for a question on citizenship to be added to the 2020 census, a move that observers say could depress participation by immigrants who fear that the government could use the information against them. That, in turn, could have potentially large ripple effects for everything the once-a-decade census determines — from how congressional seats are distributed around the country to where hundreds of billions of federal dollars are spent.

The DOJ made the request in a previously unreported letter, dated Dec. 12 and obtained by ProPublica, from DOJ official Arthur Gary to the top official at the Census Bureau, which is part of the Commerce Department. The letter argues that the DOJ needs better citizenship data to better enforce the Voting Rights Act “and its important protections against racial discrimination in voting.”

A Census Bureau spokesperson confirmed the agency received the letter and said the “request will go through the well-established process that any potential question would go through.” The DOJ declined to comment and the White House did not respond to a request for comment.

“People are not going to come out to be counted because they’re going to be fearful the information would be used for negative purposes,” said Steve Jost, a former top bureau official during the 2010 census. “This line about enforcing voting rights is a new and scary twist.” He noted that since the first census in 1790, the goal has been to count everyone in the country, not just citizens.

  • Ragnar Lothbrok

    Papers please !

    • Rebecca Gardner

      I was going to post the same exact thing.

    • TuuxKabin

      I don’t gotta show you no goddam stinkin’, mofo papers! Go to hell for goodness sake.

      • canoebum

        Actually, you do. Hiibel v Nevada was decided in 2004.

        • Xuuths

          Hiibel only referred to providing your name, not ID papers.

    • UrsusArctos 🐻

      Ваши документы, пожалуйста

    • JAKvirginia

      NYT or WaPo?

      • TrollopeReader

        Fake Papers !! 😉

    • zhera

      Papieren, Bitte! Schnell!

    • Todd20036

      Ironically, illegal immigrant deportations have dropped to less than half of what Obama did.

      Trump’s people cannot even get that right

  • bkmn

    Dear Blue states – appeal this decision if it stands. You stand to lose federal dollars if immigrants are underreported.

    • Ninja0980

      Which is the whole point of this.

      • David Walker

        No, no. I’m sure it’s just coincidence, that the wording is being misinterpreted. (I hate these fucking people.)

        • Audrey

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    • Taylor Bixler

      $s and potentially seats in the House.

      • Ninja0980

        NY is going to lose at least one seat.
        Only “good” thing is it will be one of the red districts.

    • Relativicus

      Yes, pay attention Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho, Iowa, Nebraska, Oklahoma…

    • Paula

      Its O.K., Trump intends to do away with the Legislative and Judicial branches, anyway.

  • leastyebejudged
  • JWC

    ya and Hitler added religion to his questionnaires

  • sfjohn

    what if we all answered we weren’t….?

    • another_steve

      They’d build a wall around us.

    • stevenj

      What if we just didn’t answer the question?

      • TuuxKabin

        Question Authority.

      • clay

        Irrelevent. The real worry is that a lot of people won’t bother to answer ANY question.

    • zhera

      Or what if all non-citizens answered they were citizens?

      • David Walker

        I’ve been thinking that, too. Of course, if caught, they’d be deported. Our government is so fucking humane these days.

        • zhera

          How would they get caught, though? Isn’t the census anonymous?

          • Todd20036

            supposed to be

          • clay

            They have successfully beaten back lawsuits by the IRS and even the US military. The professionals aren’t likely to put up with this political bullshit. The real question is how much the (past due) budget will under-fund the Census.

          • clay

            Yes, it is.

  • another_steve

    Analysts are still saying Sessions is on the chopping block.

    Good riddance to him.

    So aesthetically unpleasing.

  • Treant

    Damn it, I make a soap post and Joe moves on. 🙂 Here’s the photo of the malachite soap without the explanation, except to say it’s designed for the internal banding, not the top view!

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/10f8e9ba416a6fe3632ccc3d05dcb1d104b49be56dd890365f51ed289adc270e.jpg

    • Skeptical_Inquirer

      I know that olive oil, nut oils and lard are used for soap. What do you consider the best in terms of smell and lather? Also what would happen if someone made a butter soap.

      • TampaDink

        “…what would happen if someone made a butter soap.”

        Paula Deen would create an entire cookbook with recipes that incorporate butter soap.

        • Skeptical_Inquirer

          I’m seriously surprised she hasn’t stroked out yet.

      • MonochromeMouse

        Depend on what you mean by “butter”, there is cocoa butter soap and Shea butter soap but like butter butter doesn’t seem like a good idea for soap.

        • Skeptical_Inquirer

          Yeah, I was thinking cow butter to clear things up.

      • Treant

        You just asked a mouthful of a question. Let’s go with the second first.

        People make all-butter soaps all the time! Cocoa butter, mango butter, and so on, are all great soaping butters. If you meant milk churned butter, it’s been done, but the soap smells like vomit (it’s very high in butyric acid, which the soapmaking process releases) and it tends to be soft and harsh (it’s also high in capric acids) and goes bad very fast.

        For scent, any well-rendered fat or oil is fine, really. Overall, I’d say that tallow (beef fat) is a bit more unscented than either lard or palm oil (and also lacks some of palm oil’s problems).

        Lather…depends. If you like loads of creamy lather, lard, palm, and tallow will be your friend. If you prefer lots of bubbles, coconut oil (or the more expensive alternatives, babassu and palm kernel oil). But the bubblier, the harsher the cleansing, so we tend to limit the amount of coconut.

        Overall, I like tallow the best. It’s a mix of mostly-creamy with some bubbly lather, a moderately good cleanser without being stripping, but it does benefit by being offset by other oils that bring other characteristics to the table. This batch was majority tallow, with some olive oil (much more conditioning and gentle), a bit of coconut (big bubbles and cleaning power), and a dash of castor (highly conditioning, stabilizes lather, and is a very unique oil).

        • Skeptical_Inquirer

          Thanks for all the information. Cow milk soap sounds terrible. I prefer lather over bubbles so I guess I should lean more towards tallow/lard.

          • Treant

            I’m so in the middle it’s ridiculous. Summer, I like tons of lather.

            Winter, I’m using a high olive oil soap that–technically–has tons of creamy lather. Really, it’s more like “washing lotion” if you’re being kind. “Snot” if you’re not a fan. But it cleans without stripping natural oils and moisture.

      • Frostbite

        pretty much any oil can be used to make soap. the problem is oils have different “properties” when they are used to make soap. some lather well, some don’t. some make hard, longer-lasting bars, some make soft bars that melt away quickly. some clean well, and some don’t. btw, it’s a horrible misconception that lather = cleaning ability. i add 1oz castor oil to all my soaps because it makes a good thick lather (and adds to bar hardness), but it doesn’t clean very well. there is more to take into consideration depending on what you’re going for.

        “best” in terms of smell? well there are lots of essential and fragrance oils you can add to give you whatever smell you want (just don’t eat the chocolate smelling bars)! lather, well, see what i said above.

        soap out of dairy butter alone? probably wouldn’t work well. butter doesn’t have enough oils and dairy can make soaps go rancid quickly. milk soaps have great moisturizing abilities but can get funky in 6 months if not stored properly. i do make goat milk soaps now and then but they aren’t my personal favorite.

        • Lars Littlefield

          I’ve got four full quart bottles of avocado oil. Maybe I should make it into soap.

    • Joe in PA

      Well I hope you post an “after” picture…as I was browsing this thread…saw this…I thought something like “drain the swamp”. 🙂

      [ducking]

      • Treant

        It’s in the oven now. Worst case, call it camo soap and run with it.

    • Sam_Handwich

      I was feeling antsy this morning so i made stuffed cabbage which i will cover in sauce and bake for dinner later https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55b14d1520447182ee15e7fd0e327a45f703d3731ac6683b2f7f640b5981de8e.jpg

      • TuuxKabin

        That looks delicious. Preparing some good nourishment is therapeutic. For me. Thought I’d heat up the kitchen area, turned on the oven and made first batch biscuits ever. How easy is that! Added coriander ‘buds,’ white peppercorn and chiltipin buds to the mix for a lil’ kick, some grated Locatelli, they were ready in ten minutes. Could have had a beer with them.

        • Lars Littlefield

          I want!

      • Treant

        They look like condoms wrapped around very girthy… Er, it’s been two days. Sorry.

        I adore stuffed cabbage! Actually, I haven’t had that in ages…

      • canoebum

        In this house we call them golumpki. Usually served with a red sauce seasoned with salt pork. Interesting that you bake them. We cook them in the red sauce at a slow simmer. To keep them from burning, we lay some extra cabbage leaves on the bottom of the pot.

        • Sam_Handwich

          i’ve cooked them on the stove top in a dutch oven, too, generally if i’m making twice as many, so i can stack them in layers.

          today for sauce i’m just using campbell’s tomato soup thinned with a bit of chicken broth. cover and bake at 325 for 90 mins or so.

          • canoebum

            That is a small batch. Enjoy!

          • Sam_Handwich

            it was a small head of cabbage, and i’d only picked up a pound of ground beef, then added sauted onion, celery, garlic, and about a cup of cooked rice and an egg.

          • ZRAinSWVA

            Instead of rice, try barley (not completely cooked so it’ll retain a little ‘bite’, and will have capacity to absorb the sauce).

            We have a freezer full of cabbage rolls…vacuum packed they keep very well.

          • WiMountainBear

            LOVE LOVE LOVE Cabbage Rolls… I add a can of kraut before baking. Adds a Lil Zing to it.

          • marshlc

            I was raised on those things, always thought I hated them – only to find, in adulthood, that what I hated was the tomato sauce my mom cooked them in. Serve them in a nice mushroom sauce, and yum

      • TrollopeReader

        darn, and i postponed a trip today past your fair city … if i’d a known ….

      • BearEyes

        looks good. They’re a labour of love to make. I only make them when i have a full afternoon. Enjoy!

  • Ninja0980

    I wonder if some of the bigots realize under counting would hit Red states like AZ and TX too?

    • Tawreos

      I think they believe it will hurt the bluer districts more than red districts.

    • Karl Dubhe 2

      The end goal is to restore the ole law about only letting property holders vote. From that POV; fuck the poor.

      I could be wrong, but that’s what I think the Republicans will try.

      • clay

        Their stated (thanks, to whomever sued to get Kansas’ Kris Kobach’s meeting notes) end goal is to only let people who voted in the 2016 general election vote through 2032.

  • Taylor Bixler

    So, the “protect the voting rights act” excuse is pure horseshit, but seems like they are already asking this on the census?
    https://www.census.gov/acs/www/about/why-we-ask-each-question/citizenship/

    • Hue-Man

      I checked the Canadian Census 2016; citizenship questions are asked only for the 25% of Canadians selected at random to fill out the “long” census form.

    • AJ Drew

      That link is about the American Community Survey, which replaced the “long form” census questions, which is sent to a handful of randomly selected households. I had the misfortune to receive it a while ago. The questions were, to me, incredibly invasive and personal.

      But yes, the ACS (long form, really,) includes questions about citizenship etc.
      The difference with this current DOJ request is to add those questions to the next “short form” for everyone.

  • Kevin Perez

    My prediction: Texas would lose 3 congressional seats if this were enacted.

    • clay

      The problem isn’t just at state level, however. Within states, urban areas and university areas would loose more representation than would rural areas.

  • Skeptical_Inquirer

    Can we ban reptilians from the census because I suspect most GOP pols and oligarchs are?

  • PickyPecker
    • Joe in PA

      Hey PP, remember saying the ‘deep freeze’ was headed our way…yup…only now we got some snow to go with it. I’m good with that. 🙂 Here is a shot of those geraniums from the summer, loving life inside (despite the yellow leaves that I neglected to remove). 🙂

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/abb1147f0e384b2d726f846f7b82bb70138f0c82b4e34b3a6bd577b2767abe77.jpg

      • PickyPecker

        So important to have that reminder of ‘life’ indoors in norther climates! My gers from the porch are blooming nicely in the GH – such a day brightener.
        We’ve been getting snow every couple days; 3″ here, 5″ there. All very light ‘skiing’ type snow (or rather squeezing every last drop of humidity from the atmosphere).
        Supposed to get a bit more snow tonite, then down to -14°F. Should also be coming your way, so be prepared.

        • Joe in PA

          Will do, thanks. One thing about the east coast, we tend to have tons of moisture in the atmosphere in the winter (as well as summer). When I used to visit my parents in MN around Christmastime, the outside air below zero…try heating that air to 80+…think that air was dry? Bwaahahaha.

          • PickyPecker

            I’ve got my giant humidifier on the 2nd floor running non-stop. Hate waking up with a bloody nose from the air being so dry (and that’s WITH radiator heat in the house!)

          • Joe in PA

            Yikes, radiator heat tends to be better, right? Mom and dad had forced air (oil). It was CRUNCHY in that house. 😉

          • PickyPecker

            One of the things I love about old houses…..radiators (boiler heat)! Great for socks/boots/goves…and can sit right down on them to warm up fast, lol. They’ve been hot, hot, hot the last few days and looks like that’ll continue.

          • Joe in PA

            I was in my 30s before I had my first house with radiators. When I moved in I thought…well, I’ll have to replace those things. Bwahahaha. I had no idea how wonderful radiant heat can be (and changed my mind after the first winter). Sadly we didn’t have the resources to put in radiant floor heat in our addition, but we are sure kicking ourselves now. But we have a “radiant” wood stove as an addition…so there’s that. 🙂

          • clay

            I’m on the third (top) floor of a 1903 townhouse. The building’s thermostat is set at 70F down in the front (lower) hall. My radiators are nearly locked down, but it’s above 72F in here and I can feel it through the floor. How hot must they be keeping the unit below me that I suddenly have radiant floors?

          • Grumpy Old Man

            I love radiators; I hate electric, baseboard heaters. When I was poor and struggling, all the places I lived in had radiators; now that I am doing okay, every place has baseboard heating – I would even prefer forced air heating over baseboards FFS.

          • PickyPecker
          • Joe in PA

            Why do you think I love Calvin so much? 🙂

          • TuuxKabin

            ‘Cause you Hobbs?

          • perversatile

            I’m Not Perfect But I’m Perfect For You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMypXV1YJfw

        • clay

          Yep, reports say next Friday in eastern PA.

        • Jwmvh

          I am so jealous of you! A greenhouse too?? I had one 30+ years ago.

      • TuuxKabin

        Gawdgeous, shocking gawdgeous. A lot of humidity required? Our’s dried up and died. Lavender’s doing okay tho.

        • Joe in PA

          Thank you. 🙂 see my other post to PP. It isn’t ‘humid’, but it isn’t sahara either. And that room tends to stay a bit cooler with all the windows. Yeah, lavender really likes dry. We haven’t been successful trying to grow it outside.

          • kiprian

            Here in Baltimore, lavender is the go-to plant for postage-stamp sized front yards. With a western exposure, my front “yard” stretches about 18 inches from sidewalk to masonry wall. I have to take a machete to the lavender about twice each year. So, yup, dry and hot is the recipe.

          • David Walker

            Too humid? In PA? Whatever will they say about us next?

      • David Walker

        We sang this as part of our winter concert a few weeks ago. The poem is by John Greenleaf Whittier. This is the sales demo.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ_R8-W_CRA

        • Joe in PA

          Beautiful. Thanks.

      • yes b’y

        from what I can see of your house it looks beautiful

  • Harveyrabbit

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fa505bc5f7a6ece9be617ddb4e6bf07ae6f718879b78644940a6992fd1e7651f.gif “We’ll be giving away one of my famous Jim Crow Cookies with every Census form!”

  • Yes, because people already know how trustworthy these administration is.

  • TrollopeReader

    Happy New Year fellow friends …. emerging from 10 days or so of The Flu. Fun, fun, fun !!!

    • PickyPecker

      Hope you’re feeling better, TR. Glad to hear you’ll be more yourself for the start of a new year. Push those liquids! XO

    • David Walker

      Don’t rush things, OK? I have a friend who has not been able to shake the coughing and soreness, but she feels the world needs her (and we frequently do), so she’s up and around when she thinks she’s better. As my grandma would say, “Don’t over-do.”

    • emjayay

      Flu shots work and are free and available everywhere. I got one and got a terrible long lasting cold instead.

  • BeaverTales

    This is another battle Democrats will play “duck and cover” with, to their own detriment. The census has to be accurate, has to be objective (aka using proven tools of data collection), it has to be transparent and it has to be fair….otherwise we are doomed to another decade of gerrymandering.

    Citizenship is a fair question, but one that can be easily lied about on a census questionnaire. Immigrants can’t vote until they are citizens, and political boundaries shouldn’t be determined by them until they have the legal right to vote. If it hurts liberals, we’ll just have to suck it up and get more people registered at the DMV The real battle is how congressional districts are decided based on voting citizens.

    • canoebum

      Citizenship is irrelevant to the census. Such a question is not required by the Constitution which indicates “residents” are to be counted. Whether they vote, have the right to vote or not, all residents of a Congressional District should be fairly represented by their elected officials. Congressional Districts are based on population, not citizenship status. Your take on this is way off base.

    • clay

      “boundaries shouldn’t be determined by them until they have the legal right to vote”

      The Constitution of the United States disagrees with you.

      • BeaverTales

        Yes, the South counted people like me as 3/5 of a person, denied us citizenship, but still counted us in the census in order to give disproportionate representation in Congress to slaveowners.

        But since the passage of 14th Amendment ended legal slavery, since when has counting non-citizens been used as a measure for Congressional purposes of redistricting considered constitutional? I’m curious.

        • clay

          Art 1, sec 2, cl 3 reads, “whole number of persons” (minus Indians, minus 40% of Blacks), and that’s how the Census was conducted from 1790 to 1890. The 14th Amendment, sect 2, cl 1 reads, “whole number of persons” (minus Indians), and that’s how the Census was conducted from 1900 to 1920. Since 1930, the Census has counted all residents, regardless of color or citizenship. In 1890 and in the 1920s , when the “whole number of persons” in the 14th’s Census clause was reinterpreted to include Indians (so there would be internal consistency among its clauses), we had immigration controls– the US Constitution has never allowed the Census to be based on citizenship, and the US Census has never been based on citizenship, and US Representative boundaries have never been drawn based on number of citizens.

          • BeaverTales

            Not exactly. The former US non-citizen residents (black, Asians on the west coast, and aboriginal) always had the legal right to reside in the US, despite being denied the benefits of full citizenship. A “whole” person was a citizen. Immigrants were never considered “whole” unless they had some type of residency status. No state counts migrant workers or non-resident aliens as residents, for example….at least California and Alaska (the states I know best) don’t.

            Legal residency is required to be counted in the census, even if the residency is temporary and doesn’t allow voting. The number of legal resident aliens is typically small.

            In Canada, where if you’re American, you can rent an apartment, but cannot reside more than 6 months a year,. You can’t be counted in the census if you lack CIC status. I hope to get permanent residency next year, and I can’t fill out the Canadian census forms until that happens. I can still fill out my US census forms in Alaska, where I live (6 months+1 day)/yr, but I can’t fill out both if I don’t legally reside in both. When I legally reside in both countries, I can fill out both census forms.

          • clay

            Some states might do that, but NOT the US Census.
            BTW, “non-resident” aliens aren’t residents, because that’s what “non-resident” means. The US Census asks how many are living where, NOT staying temporarily, like non-resident aliens, or other vacationers, even if they are native-born citizens, not migratory farm labor, or any native-born person without a permanent residence. The people in the most legal gray zone as far as the Census Bureau is concerned are homeless persons.

  • GanymedeRenard

    Much a propos, I wouldn’t be surprised if this scene happened under this administration:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8ab1b8b209b03737b381b473a2b04c9f2bc71c0766b6a43a8293fdc9cb7b524.jpg

  • Lars Littlefield

    I’m surprised for the new census that goons aren’t going door to door asking occupants to show state ID to prove they actually live in their homes.

    • LesbianTippingHabits

      That idea is still under discussion internally.

    • clay

      too expensive.

      They’re just planning to fuck it up so bad that they get to do re-districting using the (counted) 2016 voters, instead.

  • Halou

    The letter argues that the DOJ needs better citizenship data to better enforce the Voting Rights Act “and its important protections against racial discrimination in voting.”

    Because Jeff Sessions is so concerned about racial discrimination… /s

    Also how is knowing a person’s citizenship going to help address racial discrimination? Black people are as American as David Duke. Or does Jeffy boi not know that?

    • J Ascher

      The citizenship question is, more than likely, meant to prevent legitimate Hispanic voters than African-American voters. The Hispanic population is growing and becoming more influential – especially in states like Florida.

  • Nic Peterson

    Which will lead to taxation without representation and we all know what that lead to.

  • LesbianTippingHabits

    The Census Bureau should respond to the Justice Department by asking the Justice Department to provide proof of its commitment to enforce the Voting Rights Act.

  • Hank

    The Racist Elf needs to get Fired by Herr Drumpf!!!

  • FAEN

    Xtians-always proving what complete and utter assholes they are. And I’m being kind.

  • ” . . . the DOJ needs better citizenship data to better enforce the Voting
    Rights Act “and its important protections against racial discrimination
    in voting.”

    I wonder if whoever actually wrote the letter was laughing out loud.

  • Del Sam

    So, what if we leave that particular question unanswered?

    • Bj Lincoln

      I won’t answer it but I will make sure my marriage is listed as a lesbian one in bright pink letters! Removing all questions about LGBT people and our families and adding a question about citizenship makes the census more like a witch hunt tool than a way to support ALL Americans and others living here. Remember when we had big pink stickers to put on the back of the census to make ourselves known? We MUST do it again!

    • kareemachan

      I worked in two previous censuses (censi?), and the only requirement we tried to have answered was whether or not you lived at a specific address on a specific date or not. Everything else was NOT necessary to get an answer to.

  • kaydenpat

    “the DOJ needs better citizenship data to better enforce the Voting Rights Act ‘and its important protections against racial discrimination in voting.’”

    What a sick joke. Everyone knows that this DOJ could care less about civil rights especially those concerning voters of color.

    • EdA

      Oh, it cares all right. But not in a good way.

  • EdA

    That’s funny. There was, allegedly, no room on the census form for existing questions about LGBT Americans, and there is no Constitutional requirement with respect to citizens as distinct from residents. I’m somewhat surprised that the Grand Wizard-General doesn’t explicitly try to count the votes of Black citizens as worth only 3/5 those of White citizens. Not explicitly, that is, just functionally.

    • MarkBuster

      my guess is that they WILL do a 3/5 count by simply defunding census workers in AA areas.

  • leastyebejudged

    We SHOULD know how many non-citizens are in the country.

    Issue is, we have people that believe we shouldn’t know, not how to go about finding out.

    Either way, we can be certain the government is doing it’s very best !

  • Paula

    I’m sorry. Did I forget to check that box before sending that form in?

  • William

    Time to create a Nambian passport, and wait for the census worker to come to the door. He better bring a translator, the Nambian language consists of armpit farts.

  • marshlc
  • kareemachan

    Ye elder gods, what a pouty little shitbag jeffy is…

  • Chris Craft

    So they take away visibly of lgbt families and now ask this question instead…