HAWAII: State Supreme Court Hears Same-Sex Parenting Case That Tests Scope Of Marriage Equality

Via press release from Lambda Legal:

The Supreme Court of Hawai’i today heard oral argument in the case of C.C. v. D.D., in which Lambda Legal is urging the Court to uphold a lower court ruling that, just like different-sex spouses, same-sex spouses must be treated as the presumed parents of children born during their marriage, with equal rights and equal responsibilities, including legal parentage and child support.

The case involves a dispute between a married same-sex couple regarding whether the non-biological mother, C.C., is a legal parent to their child and thus responsible for paying child support. Lambda Legal is representing the biological mother, D.D., who gave birth to a child conceived through assisted reproduction using anonymous donor sperm, during the couple’s marriage. (The parties are identified only by pseudonym initials during the oral argument.)

Among other things, C.C. is asking the appeals court to hold that she is not a legal parent – and to relieve her of her child support obligations – simply because she is not biologically related to the child. The lower court rejected this argument and found that C.C. was a legal parent under the Uniform Parentage Act and Marriage Equality Act, both of which operate to presume that the legal spouse of a birth parent is also a parent, a longstanding feature of family law that is intended to protect the well-being of children.

  • Treant

    Uh, equal means equal. Or if it doesn’t, I want a tax break that reflects that I don’t have equal rights, so therefore don’t have equal responsibilities.

  • thom

    Seems like a cut-and-dry case. And the Hawaiian Supreme Court will most likely rule in our favor.

    • Treant

      Wait and see. They probably will, but if this is challenged in (say) Alabama, I would expect the ruling to be the reverse to attempt to chip away at marriage rights.

      (As I noted, equal means equal, it should be ruled the same way as the heterosexual case should be…but…)

      • UrsusArctos 🐻

        A variation on this is working through the courts here in Mississippi. To make it even better, it’ll go through the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

        • Treant

          How lovely. My prediction? Screw the law and the kids; whatever ruling will weaken marriage is the one they’ll choose.

          • UrsusArctos 🐻

            Justice Carlton Reeves (Federal Circuit Court Jackson, MS) has written some of the most eloquent and legally airtight opinions on marriage equality that were seen during that fight. If he draws the case it’ll likely be another slap down for the state.
            The problem is that the Court of Appeals (5th Circuit) in NOLA is a festering pile of TX/LA/MS GOP tools. There is where things will get nasty.
            They punted on Equality by withholding a decision until SCOTUS ruled as they knew their twisted ruling would likely be struck down by it.

        • thom

          The same issue appeared in Arkansas courts this year. The Court found that married same sex couples should NOT appear on birth certificates.
          The SCOTUS summarily reversed the case without holding hearings REQUIRING Arkansas to list same sex parents on birth certificates

  • Joe in PA

    We’ve worked so hard for this…and this putz wants to take us back. Thanks asshole.

  • Hank

    They got married, decided to have children and got divorced. They wanted EQUALITY it goes ALL the WAY!!!…. Even after Divorce!!!

    • S1AMER

      Absolutely.

      Two facts: Marriage conveys rights and privileges. It also conveys responsibilities and obligations.

      Unfortunately, too many same-sex couples are like too many different-sex couples when it comes to remembering that second fact.

    • Steverino

      Yep. Rights AND responsibilities.

      Straights have their deadbeat dads, we don’t need deadbeat moms / dads, also.

    • VodkaAndPolitics

      CC? More like POS! Be a real woman and provide for your child!

    • Ore Carmi

      Let’s hope the courts agree with us.

  • thom

    I could see a decision that says that birth certificates can only reflect the biological parents. But that would change for both heterosexual and homosexual marriages. By the way, I highly doubt that they will be the outcome and I expect them to affirm the lower Court’s decision

    • The_Wretched

      If that alt-case happens, there’ll have to be a ton of testing done to tell that ‘daddy’ is actually daddy.

      • thom

        Yes. Which is why I don’t think it will happen

      • Treant

        And what if I know full well I’m not the daddy, but don’t care?

        • The_Wretched

          That’s the usual case. The only ones who care are people like M-nica of 1MM.

          • Treant

            One of the best I ever saw was a case where daddy was fairly sure he wasn’t the daddy. He repeatedly told his daughter that he didn’t care…because yes, he was her father no matter what the genetics were.

  • Ragnar Lothbrok

    OT- but Donnie has literally killed christmas !

    https://twitter.com/AynRandPaulRyan/status/941393843001454592

  • Tatonka

    I agree with the lower court here. There should not be two sets of rules regarding parentage–one for straight couples and one for gay couples. In most instances, that presumption of parentage will be there to protect the non-biological parent.

    • clay

      The law and any presumption should be there to protect the child, not the parent, biological or otherwise, nor the non-parent.

      • fuow

        Yes, but given the way the system works, Tatonka’s statement remains valid. I’ve known several men who lost all contact to their children because of Colorado’s laws….

        • clay

          Can you explain “because of Colorado’s laws”? I could see how the law could allow it, but I’m not seeing how the law would cause it.

          • fuow

            In an attempt to protect the mother’s rights, Colorado put a law in place (to be fair, they modified it once they saw the consequences) which required the father to register at the time of birth, regardless of marital status or to forever after lose all parental rights while retaining responsibility for the child’s welfare.
            Poorly worded, it caused a lot of problems for quite a few fathers.

  • Stev84

    Gay people who try to use discriminatory laws to their advantage are despicable.

    • WNY

      And I think I know what at least one of those “C”s stand for in C.C.

      • Nic Peterson

        Christianist?

        • Steverino

          And the other C?

          • The_Wretched

            C is for cookie, and that’s good enough for me.

          • (((GC)))

            What a simply monstrous thing to say!
            (But it’s the warm fuzzy kind of monster, even if his eyes, mouth, and appetite are quite weird.)

          • Nic Peterson

            Hmmm. Tunt doesn’t begin with C.

          • Priya Lynn

            Cheryl/Cherlene Tunt?

          • JW Swift

            Points for the ‘Archer’ reference!

          • Will Parkinson

            Christianist Cocksucker.

          • Snarkaholic

            Craptastic.

          • RaygunsGoZap

            I don’t recognize the first name but I’m sure I’ve met her at the family reunion

    • Hamoverfist

      God I’ve thought this for a long time. I have no idea how they get anyone to date them after the fact. Before google sure but now?

  • thom

    I know it’s annoying to see these court cases come up. But more than likely they will actually strengthen marriage equality.

    • fuow

      They used to. Now, with this administration and this Supreme Court? More likely the opposite.

  • Leo

    Is Disqus still fucked up? I’m scared to post anything.

    • Treant

      It’s still a bit borky.

    • Hank

      Mine has been fucked up, since Apple updated from Sierra to High Sierra as an OS. Every time, I open a new article on JMG, I have to sign in again and again and…
      I cannot add a pic to my comment, because it says I am not logged in… even though I have done so

      • Sam_Handwich

        i’ve had the same problem with my iphone

        • Hank

          I am taking my Mac Mini in tomorrow to the Genius Bar, in order to go back to Sierra. My use of FaceTime on it is not even remotely possible!!! I have talked to Tech Support a week ago. I am an Apple Addict and this is the worst.

          Firefox works OK on my Mac Mini for JMG!

        • Steverino

          My iPad inevitably gives me the message “A problem occurred with this webpage so it was reloaded” always just as I am typing the last word in a comment I want to post to JMG.

          • greenmanTN

            I was having the same problem and changed a Safari auto reload setting and it got a lot better. I forget exactly what I changed, but I googled something like “safari resetting page stop” to get the recommendation. Rotsa ruck.

          • Steverino

            Thanks for the tip!

          • Menergy

            That was happening on my IPad, too in the past…not so much now thankfully.

        • PickyPecker

          At first I suspected espionage, but realized my microwave just cannot handle running disqus on JMG.
          https://media.giphy.com/media/Z2UrUquyiJwze/giphy.gif

          • MT YVR

            But does it watch you?

            I mean, the rest of us do just curious about it.

          • PickyPecker

            I hope not. It knows damned well I’m dating the snowblower.

          • MT YVR

            Ow. Ow. Ow.

            But also? Impressive. 😛

        • Chris Baker

          Me too, on my iPhone.

      • Joe in PA

        Same here…but the last few days it hasn’t happened. And (famous last words) I haven’t changed anything. ;(

        • Hank

          I can add a video from Youtube, and add a pic in a response to someone. However, if I start a comment, I cannot add a pic. ☹️

      • Steve Smith

        Same here. No picture uploads, sign in every single article I read and then refresh the page!

        • Hank

          I have multiple tabs open in Safari for each new article, to avoid refreshing the page. (Refreshing the page causes me to lose half of the comments.) FireFox does not require me to sign in for every article. I tried, that today. So much for the High Sierra Update!!! FaceTime works on my Mac Air with it, but not on my Mac Mini and its large screen!

      • FancyThat

        Ditto x10.

      • Eric in Oakland

        Me too. It is very annoying!

      • Menergy

        Ah, so that’s the issue…My iMac with High Sierra IOS update has been showing the “log-in with D” for Disqus to continue to participate in an article, but it’s just a point and click move….not a real frustrating thing…to get to contribute my comments.

        • Hank

          For me, it is the lack of a functioning FaceTime to talk to family and friends.

    • Boreal

      No, it is working now. I kept getting a message about maintenance before and my post finally appeared in the last thread.

      • Leo

        Thanks.

      • Treant

        Yeah, I got another ad hominem shot on another thread, so it seems to be working. Fortunately, the block button is also working. 🙂

        • Boreal

          Oooh, who needs to be blocked?

          • Treant

            Melissa’s throwing deflection arguments like mad, so I threw her an ad hominem back and blocked her useless ass. I have no time for the unethical or deeply stupid.

          • Boreal

            My tolerance for dumbfuckery is at an all time low after a year of trumpanzee madness.

          • PickyPecker

            It’s nice, at least, we don’t get too many of them here. Altho the ones that do happen by seem to be exceedingly stupid.

          • fuow

            The brightest lights cast the deepest shadows. JoeMyGod is one of the best of the best, so it makes sense the trolls would climb out from under their bridges and come here.

          • Treant

            You and me both. My tolerance level is approximately zero. Deflect an argument with a pre-emptive insult and I will go to town on their ass. You wanna see insults? Mine are not pre-emptive and I’m glad to punch their Woe Is Me card. It’s better than punching their fucking faces.

            My husband has already said that Trump supporters at my cousin’s or mother’s holiday parties will not be challenged due to the social venue, but will never be spoken of, to, or about unless and until they die painfully, at which point only laughter will be tendered.

            I concur.

          • Boreal

            You know those trumpanzees won’t be able to keep their fat yaps shut.

          • Treant

            We know. And we’re already working on one-liners that basically call them idiotic fucks without being anything they can call out at a party.

    • Ragnar Lothbrok

      It’s the new internet. Get used to it.

  • Hank

    How many MEN in Hetero Marriages, have raised and paid for a child, that was NOT genetically HIS??? Just because he did not check the DNA at birth???

    • Treant

      Haven’t you been listening? Women get all the rights, men get all the responsibilities, and anything that happens is His Fault. It’s like the Handmaid’s Tale, but somehow ethical or some such shit.

      • Bluto

        Not true. The rights for both parents are equal but there is bias in favor of woman. The man however can overcome that with a much better lawyer. $$ buys justice. (props to mine!)

        • Treant

          Misogynist! Hater! Whoremonger!

          There you go, I saved you hours of fighting with the Faux Feminists. You’re welcome. 🙂

    • The_Wretched

      the “non-parentage” rate is ~ 10%. It has some regional variation but more or less one of ten kids is not the child of the husband in a marriage. Given that a single sex act has less than 2% chance of a pregnancy, that’s a lot of unprotected non-felicitous sex. In the vast majority of those cases which came through one lab I worked at, the couples knew ahead of the birth and were only surprised we could tell by looking at chromosomal inheritance.

    • Friday

      Eh, frankly, many are or want to be deadbeats toward their own biological spawn and don’t want women to have any marriage rights about it either. Of course occasionally it is the man that gets screwed on child support when they’d already given up about everything in a divorce. The fact is, though, if you get married and especially *deliberately* make a kid, it’s by definition partly your responsibility.

    • Silver Badger

      DNA technology has only been around for a short period of time. Before that, the principal of access required he support any children of the marriage.

      • The_Wretched

        The default rule – the ‘dad’ is presumed for all children of a marriage was seen as a way to stop the bio-dads from claiming rights to the marital estate via parentage of the child.

        • Silver Badger

          It also helped to keep the child supported. Too many dead beat parents walk away the first chance they get.

  • Ninja0980

    The not so fun part of marriage equality is stuff like this.
    But at the end of the day, we want equal rights, that applies in cases of divorce as well.
    I hope C.C. is told to pay up.

    • canoebum

      Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. Always have, always will.

      • UrsusArctos 🐻

        Unless you’re a GOPer. But that’s a different thread.

  • Pip

    Deadbeat mom, but still the mom. What a douche. Can you imagine how the kid will grow up feeling?

  • The_Wretched

    Sorry C.C., pay up. You were married and had a kid. That’s all that matters to het couples so that’s all that matters to gay ones. Lamda Legal is on point and correct.

  • Jonathan Smith

    SCOPE?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
    i am married bitch.

  • zhera

    C.C., ya gotta stop being a bitch!

    Bah, humans.

  • Robincho

    FunFact™

    They tell you that Kamehameha is doing a gesture of welcome to visitors. NOT. His hand gestures toward the burial mound of his ancestors, mauka across King Street on the grounds of ‘Iolani Palace,,,

    • Steverino

      As frequent visitors to Honolulu, that is a nice tidbit of fact to know.

      • Robincho

        I got a million of ’em. Srsly…

    • Treant

      Damn, they told us he was greeting us. 🙂 Several times that I’ve been there.

      I figured that, given the islands’ history, that couldn’t possibly be true.

      • Robincho

        Boy howdy, broteinshake, you just said a mouthful… Don’t get me started…

        • Treant

          If you’re anything like my husband when he starts discussing Napoleon or World War II, I’ll endeavor to avoid it. 🙂

    • The_Wretched

      Goku?

  • She owes child support. Period.

  • peacfulseas inWA

    It may have a bit premature of me to retire my tee shirt that reads ” Marriage is a human right, not a heterosexual privilege “. What is it about marriage EQUALITY do these yokels not understand?

    • Treant

      If I’ve learned one thing, never retire a sign or political message. You will always need it again, but you may need to change (or even simply reverse!) the players in question while keeping the events the same.

      (If you’d like my philosophy on “People Are Scum And Never Learn Anything,” I’ll be happy to oblige).

      • peacfulseas inWA

        I have it tucked away for historical reasons. “Yes Virginia there was a time when people actually thought people chose their sexuality and discriminated against people they didn’t know but hated so much they built a religion around it.”

        • Treant

          Unless you’re currently just turning 12, you’re likely to need those signs again after the next Supreme Court justice retires or dies.

    • Friday

      Too used to our rights not counting for anything, no doubt. People get irrational about divorces, kids, property, and inheritances. That’s why we needed real civil marriage protections in the first place. But yes, of course it damn well comes with obligations. In fact one of the major *points* of marriage contracts is so that one partner, (say, the lower income/less able to work outside home cause of say, a kid, ) doesn’t have to fear destitution any time there’s a spat. (Or of course other misfortune like illness in or loss of a partner)

  • Leo

    Foreign Policy just broke four huge exclusive stories today with long-term implications that won’t get mainstream coverage immediately but will eventually. Just so y’all are aware.

    1. Congress is now possibly getting involved to get a response from the Intelligence Community Whistleblowing and Source Protection Office as they’ve been stonewalling to give a response for why they fired a former director in an ongoing ‘turf’ war based on ideology.
    2. Sources connected to the Cato Institute, Peter Thiel and some remaining in the WH are very close to forcing out HR McMaster for not towing the nationalist line on a # of issues.
    3. The Russians were conducting a massive intel/spy operation out of the Russian Consulate in San Francisco
    4. The head of the Congressional Ethics Office is being sued for multiple allegations of sexual harassment.

    • Treant

      So basically, this is just another day in the Trump administration, right?

    • coram nobis

      Four different stories on their main site.
      http://foreignpolicy.com/

      How about this one?
      “Whistleblower Guardian for Spies Escorted Out of Intelligence Agency Building”
      http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/14/whistleblower-guardian-for-spies-escorted-out-of-intelligence-agency-building/

    • Friday

      As routine as it may be to burn files, #3 was pretty damn obvious from all the smoke coming out of that chimney. 🙂

      • (((GC)))

        So do we have a new pope president yet?

        • BobSF_94117

          Non, habemus pablum.

    • thom

      Whos the head of the Ethics Office?

      • clay

        Doc Hastings (former R), newly appointed in 2017, right after the GOP’s attempt to eliminate the Office’s non-partisan nature. Co-Chair is David Skaggs (former D).

        • thom

          Apparently this is about a bar fight with a top official in the dept, not Hastings himself

          • clay

            So Staff Director, Omar Ashmawy.

          • thom

            Looks that way

    • The_Wretched

      #4 is on TPM. McMaster is a bit of a goof but seems to honestly want the government to work.

      • sfbob

        He wants government to work? I can see why the fascists want him out.

    • thom

      #4 appears to stem from a drunken night out that ended in a bar fight

    • RaygunsGoZap

      Thanks for the new reading material!

    • Max_1
  • fuow

    OK – this won’t end until the Supreme Court of the United States hears it. At which point, the decision will be made such that it will hurt the most gay people, possible.
    I know a lot of folks here (all of whom voted for Hillary in November 2016, and all of whom’s friends all voted for Hillary, too,right?, yeah, right) are tired of hearing me say this, but, first – it’s quite true, most gays stayed home.
    Second, most of the folks who read this are not among those obviously enlightened ones who post comments, here. (Heaping helping of /snark, there).

    Elections have consequences.

    • The_Wretched

      Not just tired, seriously wondering about your mental health. Getting super-duper stuck like that is a sign of untreated depression. I guess it could be an intentional political point as an alternative.

      • Treant

        It would be a huge mistake to misfile blind fury as depression or mental issues. Frankly, I’m still throwing away Bernie Bros, Russian Bots (but I repeat myself), and Trump supporters. Susan Sarandon is dead to me. She and her ilk will stay that way.

        In total measure, the above list seriously fucked up the country. And don’t think I or many others will ever forget about that. Or forgive.

        • The_Wretched

          I don’t think fuow is on the level and exists to keep stiring the pot.

          • Treant

            We must agree to disagree.

          • fuow

            I’m genuinely curious – about two things, actually. First, why these tremendous setbacks (not just to our rights) don’t bother you and, second, why you believe it’s not a problem?

          • Treant

            I think you entered the comment in the wrong spot; I agree with you.

          • fuow

            Disqus has been driving me crazy all day – I’ve had to move comments posted in the strangest places. Anyway, you’re quite rights. We’ll see whether the wretched answers. Rather doubt it. I think an awful lot of us are trying quite hard to make the best of this situation, how we do it just differs.

          • Treant

            Disqus has been a nightmare today and I’ve been logged out, tried to block somebody who, like a gassy turd, just wouldn’t flush, and had comments migrating all over the place.

          • fuow

            I think I probably live in a far less cloistered place than most folks around here. We’re in much worse trouble than many here like to acknowledge.

          • Jmdintpa

            im with you and have been saying it… no election is going to get us back from this one.

        • fuow

          I hear you.

    • JackNasty
  • Paula

    Even though we have never been married and our girls are from anonymous donor, I would never think of cutting them off. I was there when they were born. They handed each of them to me as they were plucked out. They are my babies, too.
    And in 16 days, they turn 18. Soon, we can get rid of them. 😉

    • Boreal
    • Silver Badger

      In Colorado social services require support until they are 19. In any case, when your teenager gets older, they start to become human again and can be a pleasure to have around.

      • Treant

        I have nieces. When does this rehumanization start?

        • Boreal

          Takes a while, mine was in her late 20s when it happened.

          • Treant

            Blast. Ten years for the first one, minimum.

        • Silver Badger

          Middle to late 20’s.

      • (((GC)))

        Parents, aunts, uncles, etc. also (often) improve with time.

        “When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
        (Attributed to Mark Twain)

    • Treant

      Well, duh, you’re their mom. And you’re reasonable, sensible, and very, very human.

      This C.C….I don’t use that kind of language. And if you look at the language I do use with abandon, that’s saying something.

      • Paula

        I explained below what I thought CC meant but Joe has to approve it.
        Complete C u next Tuesday. C’mon Joe, I can take it.

        • (((GC)))

          That C word is one of the two Joe bans from this site, out of concern for the sensitivities of some readers. (I found out the hard way, in a comment about how our society would be better off without terms for the incomparable, exuberant joy and bonding of sex, and for related body parts, being used for dominance and insult. It was fine after I rephrased it.)

          The other banned word is the N word.

          • Paula

            I know. It was bad of me. For a person like CC that is trying to shirk responsibility, I make an exception.
            She is reprehensible!

          • (((GC)))

            And I completely agree!!

    • That_Looks_Delicious

      Awwww. You’re making me get sentimental and feel empty-nesty and I don’t even know them.

  • Gigi

    C.C. sounds like a truly despicable person. The child would probably be better off not having this woman in her life. That being said, she is legally responsible to pay support.

  • Cuberly Deux

    OT: Well, I see the GOP pols and talking heads coordinating talking-points. They’re beginning to refer to the tax bill and cuts as a raise, or pay increase for the middle class.

    So refer to the tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations as needed for the economy. For lower and middle class it’s a pay raise. They’ve obviously gotten flack for stagnant wages and no proof of how these tax cuts will translate into higher wages. Just a government subsidized raise I spose.

    • PickyPecker

      Why, yes! It’s going to be a huge help in my paycheck come February. At least that’s what the free-range analysts on ‘Today’ told me. of course, I believe them. /s

      • Jonathan Smith

        then comes march, april…………ect……

    • The_Wretched

      Trying out new talking points at the 11th hour is a hopeful sign. It means they are getting huge negatives on the prior messaging. I’ve been seeing 80%+ are against the tax increase bill.

      • Friday

        They’re obviously ignoring the negatives and using BS simply to occupy the media.

    • Friday

      Of course the numbers say nothing of the sort at all. This is a straight up scam.

    • clay

      Referring to the tax cuts as a raise or pay increase means even they don’t believe that the corporate cuts will lead to a raise or pay increase. They’re admitting that their claim of 0.7% economic growth (let alone the 1.4% additional growth necessary to avoid the projected deficit growth) will NOT trickle down to the workers, but will be hoarded by the owners or only circulated among the money jugglers.

      • The_Wretched

        right, #1 use of windfall income to a corp is share buy backs. That both gives extra cash to the mgmt tier as well as increases the value of their retained shares. They do not spend on business investment or to increase payroll or hiring. Those happen when demand goes up and they can’t meet it with current staffing or infrastructure.

  • BeaverTales

    If you are queer, then your marriage is skim milk, according to 4/9 SCOTUS justices who decided with the minority on Windsor. As long as Kennedy is consistent with previous opinions, I hope this goes to the SCOTUS before Dump replaces him with another RWNJ.

    • The_Wretched

      And Kennedy keeps saying things like we need to respect the opinions of the bigots whenever he asks questions.

      • Treant

        I’d love to ask Kennedy, “Why? They have no respect for my opinion, my safety, my rights, or my anything else. Precisely why must I have respect for them?”

        • Ninja0980

          Yup and why should we have to go elsewhere because they refuse to obey the law?

  • JT
    • Boreal

      Thanks for making me cry.

  • Henry Auvil

    Isn’t Hawai’i that imaginary place where the last president claimed he was born? Can’t the current president just claim anything that happens there is FAKE NEWS!!?

  • PickyPecker

    GAH! A well-meaning neighbor had dropped off a toy ball for Paddinton earlier. IT JUST STARTED FLASHING AND BARKING JINGLE BELLS!!!!

    • Jonathan Smith

      thou mat go crazy……
      he loves it.:)
      deal

      • PickyPecker

        I don’t know what triggers it. It just started doing it on its own. Has stopped now, but nothing I do can get it to go again. Possession??? Should I be contacting a priest??

        • netxtown

          dogs have supernatural powers. be nice to him. be very nice to him…..

        • Karl Dubhe 2

          No, get revenge. Does the neighbour have kids?

          Get the loudest, most obnoxious toy you can find and deliver it to them for Christmas. Of course, a bit of research would help; don’t get the kid something they won’t play with. 😀

        • NowAnAgnostic

          I’m sure Roy Moore would have an answer. 🙂

    • Bluto

      Merry christmas!!

    • Boreal

      Hubby bought our dog Underdog and woody woodpecker with sound boxes. Pup loves to hear woody laugh or “there’s no need to fear, underdog is here.’

      • Treant

        My mother got ours one that sings, “Who let the dogs out? Bark! Bark! Bark!” when dropped.

        It’s cute, but neither of our dogs likes it. It scares them.

    • Treant

      Oh, lord. Can you remove the batteries? Or possibly accidentally throw it down the garbage disposal?

    • Jefe5084

      accidentally run over that toy in your car.

  • netxtown

    Joe – you got some kind of pop-up scam possibly running from one of your ads. I only get the “Congratulations Verizon Wireless user, You are our potential winner today!” when I am at JMG.com. (I get the screen with or without FF tracking protection)

    It is annoying as all billy goat hell!

    • I got it on my phone but not my computer. Bizarre, maybe browser difference I guess.

    • Treant

      Yeah, that’s annoying…but what did you win today?

      :-p

      • netxtown

        I believe it’s called a PPP.
        perpetually puckered pussy!

        • Treant

          …Ew,

          • netxtown

            and it hurts, too.

    • Tread

      Are you viewing the site in Facebook? I keep getting that ad when I try to view sites using Joe’s ad network, not just on JMG, but only when I use the Facebook browser.

      • netxtown

        nope. I never go to fb.

    • safari

      It’s to celebrate the end of net neutrality

    • netxtown

      anygbody know what this is. I’ve not seen a ‘sub’ in an ip address for a tracert

      46.sub-174.206.5 [174.206.5.46]

    • BearEyes

      happens on android. And yes, annoying. Do not click on it. Close that tab.
      Select the option to show the standard desktop version of the site – rather than the mobile view. It happens on a number of sites.

  • Nic Peterson

    O/T but please add my voice to the call for a return to the weekly review of pervy religious nuts. This one could prove to be interesting from a legal POV. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/12/14/another-roy-moore-christian-right-judge-accused-of-raping-bible-study-student/

  • Bluto

    Fuck you CC! Parenthood is not a job you walk away from. It is a lifelong commitment.

  • OT, but couldn’t this whole Net Neutrality fiasco work in the Dems favor next year?

    • thom

      Yes. But only if people see the effects of it

      • you don’t think they will? once they see their costs go up….

        • Treant

          If it’s fairly minor–and at first, I think it will be–it’ll be lost in the noise of everything else. And they’ll turn the heat up slowly enough that you won’t notice it until it starts to burn*.

          * Contrary to the popular story, the frog will jump out when the water reaches around 120°, give or take. Neither humans nor frogs will stick around when their pain nerves start firing. 🙂

          • Menergy

            There is some old Hungarian tale about getting out early, not delaying ( the frog is sitting [dont ask me why] in a bowl of “chochonya” ( some sort of pudding as I recall the details) as the pudding cools down in the basement and it solidifies with the frog still in it, unable to escape once it’s too late and the pudding sets up. Or was it sitting in the pudding which is then put on the stove and the frog doesn’t realize it’s Heating up slowly until it’s too late to avoid being cooked? I’m sure there’s more to the tale and the moral of the story… but I’m not Hungarian.

        • thom

          I dont think it will happen by the midterms. There will be many lawsuits that will slow down repeal

      • Friday

        Guess what’ll be hard to learn or network about *because* of no Net-neutrality.

  • thom

    Way Off Topic: I had a weird conversation with a small group of friends yesterday. It was a mixed group with gender and orientation.
    We talk openly about sex.
    One of my friends is a straight woman who is promiscuous and submissive, she was talking about things she likes men to do to her.
    Another friend, a gay guy who is a freak himself interrupted and called it abuse.
    She assured him that rough sex and BDSM was consensual to her and probably mild compared to his sex life.
    He responded “with everything that’s going on in the US and #metoo I don’t think it’s right”
    What the fuck?
    I hope gay guys don’t think it’s our job now to police the sex life of straight people, especially women.
    Part of believing women is believing that women can be in control of their own sex life.

    • Treant

      (shrugs) If she doesn’t think it abuse and she’s a willing participant, then it’s not abuse. QED. Even if it might be seen as such by an outside party who objects to, say, bruises, cuts, or abrasions.

      I’d tend to say that’s a decision between any two or more consenting adults of any gender, and any interference by any person of any gender is inappropriate except in extreme cases (that should be fairly obvious).

      There’s no “especially women” about it; for decades, the law policed our sex lives. It had no right to do so, and eventually the Supreme Court agreed with that. The wrong is equal.

      • thom

        I agree! I am just hoping it doesnt become a trend for liberals (like my friend) to try and police consensual sex.

    • Friday

      It’s… a little more complicated for straight girl submissives, given the general cultural background of abuse and distinctly non-BDSM-ethical attitudes among straight guys, but just the fact she’s in mixed company and can talk about it’s a generally good sign that she knows what she’s about there. Especially if you also meet her partner/s once in a while. (*abuse* tends to mean both being cut off from social contacts and lots of silencing.)

      • thom

        Agreed. And I have met some of her partners before. She’s smart about it.

        • Friday

          Well, that’s good. A BDSM scene usually is based on not just the whole trust and consent thing, but come to it, reputations. Abusive types tend to leave wreckage and generally are known for that and thus…. not around. Still kind of dangerous, cause nothing’s perfect, but then again I worry about some of you boys just from how you talk about Grindr and stuff but BDSM’s different outside some of those circles.

          • thom

            Yeah, from what she tells me she has hookups with guys she doesn’t know well but those only include vanilla sex. She leaves BDSM to guys she knows through reputation/the scene.
            I share your concern about grindr etc

          • thom

            My major concern with my other friends comments was his thinking that consensual sex what’s akin to sexual abuse.
            Granted us gay guys aren’t that in tune with female sexuality

          • Friday

            Broadly speaking, lines *can* get more blurry than you may be used to, being mostly used to dealing with other, usually white, cis, for that matter, guys in about the same position when it comes to being queer. Women and other minorities are rarely actually on equal footing when it comes to dudes. Consent’s important but it’s not some talisman of ‘everything’s cool,’ either.

    • LesbianTippingHabits

      Not re tipping, but if adult women are allowed to make their own decisions, then this must include the right to make bad ones.

      It is quite clear from this thread that she has chosen to participate in these scenes. While friends can appropriately and discreetly inquire every so often as to her well being, to ensure she is still choosing to participate, well, at that point, it’s her right to live her life in the lifestyle she chooses.

      At least people are thinking about this, and the possibilities that may exist if a lifestyle is not freely chosen, but there’s a boundary issue there, too.

      Thank you.

  • bkmn

    A reminder that Lambda Legal is doing real work and can use any donation you can afford.

    • Boreal

      Thank you for the reminder. Just donated to SPLC and ACLU and Lambda will get some out of the next paycheck.

  • RaygunsGoZap

    UH….CC wherever you are a hearty FUCK YOU!

    You are the parent forever. Do your fucking duty.

  • BearEyes

    How is this decided for similarly situated opposite sex couples?
    There’s your answer.

  • dogdadny

    Bet that bitch never gets laid again – or at least by any woman who knows what she’s trying to do.

  • ‘Til Tuesday

    In my own state (Tennessee) a lawsuit is going to trial in February contending that since Tennessee’s law on marriage was invalidated by the Supreme Court’s Obergefell ruling in June 2015, therefore no marriages licenses (gay or straight) issued after the ruling are valid.

    The plaintiff contends that there is no law in place in Tennessee on marriage, and therefore no marriage licenses can be issued to anyone. The state’s most notorious anti-gay bigot (David Fowler) filed it in a county that’s very religious even by Tennessee standards. It won’t be shocking if he wins. The ACLU of Tennessee is defending.

  • marshlc

    What a piece of shit. Imagine how that kid will feel growing up knowing that a parent went to fucking court to avoid having to chip in to pay to feed and clothe it.

    CC, I hope you die old and sick and alone, with nobody to love you. worst thing I can think of to wish on a person.

    • M Jackson

      Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for sparing me the trouble to put it into words. I hope someday we learn who C.C. is.

  • No wonder they are getting divorced! i’d toss her ass to the curb as well. The child is going to be happier with CC out of her life. But, yeah she should totally pay until the kid graduates college.

    • ZRAinSWVA

      Absolutely!

  • Max_1
  • Max_1

    Crappy parent… Some of us got ’em too.
    I hope the child and remaining mother are surrounded by people who love them.

  • ZRAinSWVA

    Why is this even a question? You got married, you wanted to have a baby and did, and you’re both responsible for the care and upbringing of the child. Period. Regardless of who actually carried the child.

  • narutomania

    So I guess that lesbians and gay men are only 3/5ths equal to straight people?

    Either we are EQUAL or we are not. There are no degrees of equality.

  • chrisinphx

    Wow a lesbian deadbeat mom?