Trump Lawyer: Collusion Isn’t A Crime Anyway

The New Yorker reports:

For now, Jay Sekulow and Ty Cobb are sticking to their original strategy. They have advertised their willingness to coöperate with Mueller as a sign that Trump has nothing to hide, and their reaction to Flynn’s guilty plea reflects this view. “Nothing about the guilty plea or the charge implicates anyone other than Mr. Flynn,” Cobb said.

With regard to Mueller’s broader investigation, the White House lawyers’ position continues to be that President Trump didn’t commit a crime because no one did—or could—because there is no federal crime called “collusion,” and Rosenstein’s order did not refer to any criminal statutes that may have been violated.

In several conversations with me, Sekulow emphasized that collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, even if it did take place, wouldn’t be illegal. “For something to be a crime, there has to be a statute that you claim is being violated,” Sekulow told me. “There is not a statute that refers to criminal collusion. There is no crime of collusion.”

RELATED: Sekulow and his son provide legal aid to foreign governments to help them retain laws that criminalize homosexuality. Back in June, it was revealed that authorities in two states are investigating the Sekulows for diverting $60 million in “charity” donations to family businesses.

  • Sam_Handwich

    oh well that settles it! call off the investigation.

    • TampaDink

      And we know that there will not be a peep out of the gop if a Democratic presidential campaign openly seeks the help of foreign governments to “win” in 2020. /sarcasm.

  • TampaDink

    Fuck this asshat!

    • William

      No thanks!

      • TampaDink

        How about with a red hot fireplace poker?

        • William

          Let me check my schedule.

          • TampaDink

            I’m extremely busy for the next couple of weeks….getting ready for our move a week from tomorrow, but as soon as we’re done unpacking, I’m free to assist you.

  • Acronym Jim

    “Conspiracy” on the other hand….

  • Boreal

    I never thought any administration would surpass the incompetence and outright deceit of the Bush administration. I was wrong.

    • Todd20036

      Try Nixon. Trump is worse than Nixon

      Nixon never committed treason

      • JackFknTwist

        So when he is caught for collusion he is already saying “it wasn’t illegal”.

        what about all his lies?
        What about the Russians having Kompromat on him ?
        Is this Presidient trust worthy in his decisions ?
        PeePee tapes !!

      • JCF

        Wellll…re Nixon: in the fall of 1968, he sent his reps to Paris, to derail peace talks w/ Vietnam (and then 12 years later, Reagan did almost the same damn thing, re the Iran Hostages).

        Treasonous Rethug “Party Over Country” has been going on a LONG time (and they usually get away w/ it—though arguably Nixon didn’t).

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          • Nowhereman

            I hope your landrover gets covered with door dings. Go away, Spammy.

      • The New Paige Turner™

        Nixon or Trump?

        I would take Nixon

    • Prost Seattle

      I miss the intellect of GWB. How sad is that?

      At this point in time I think the Obama years were like Pamela dreaming in Dallas.

  • safari

    Donald’s lawyers are going to understand what it feels like to go through a woodchipper before this is all done.

    • Stogiebear

      I don’t believe there’s any criminal statute that’s called “woodchipper” either. Fancy that!

    • Just Noh

      i wish i had your faith. maybe tomorrow…can’t today

  • LeftyNYC

    But there is a crime called “treason.”

    • Ragnar Lothbrok

      The season of treason is upon us

      • dagobarbz, fine Italian shoes

        Treason’s Greetings…

    • Trump has not committed treason. He has broke laws on Bribery, extortion, tax evasion, violation of the Logan Act, money laundering, obstruction of Justice, Conspiracy, but no stinkin treason.

      • William

        What is that back and forth with Wikileaks and Russia called?

        • Kenster999

          I think the point is that “treason” is defined in the Constitution as:

          Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

          Congress hasn’t declared war on Russia, so treason wouldn’t apply.

          • JackFknTwist

            Korean War
            Vietnam War
            Cold War
            Granada Invasion
            War on Terror
            Covert War,
            South America CIA War
            War on Drugs/Colombia
            Russia is one of the few places where America has not been at war.

          • imorder

            Cyberwar isn’t war now? When did that happen?

        • Conspiracy, violation of the Logan Act, bribery..

          Treason is one of the few things specifically laid out in the US Constitution.. There has to be a state of war, whether with Russia or the Barbary Pirates before bozos commit treason..

          • Adam Schmidt

            Due the Patriot Act, we are in a constant state of war with “radical terrorism”. It’s what allowed Bush, then Obama, and now Trump to send troops pretty much anywhere without Congressional authorization on a case by case basis.

          • Gerry Fisher

            Even if courts were willing to stretch the definition of war that far, which “terrorists” did Trump conspire with? (None.)

          • Adam Schmidt

            Sorry, I wasn’t suggesting that Trump conspired with terrorists. But I was intending to correct you about being at a state of war. We’ve been at war since 2001 with no clear end in sight.

          • The New Paige Turner™

            Thank you.

            Throwing around the word “treason” is misunderstood.

            As you say, there has to be a state of war which there is not.

        • Gerry Fisher

          It’s treasonous (in lay person’s terms) or treason lite. But it doesn’t meet the legal criteria of treason.

      • OdieDenCO

        In Ex Parte Bollman, 8 U.S. 75
        (1807), the Supreme Court ruled that “there must be an actual
        assembling of men, for the treasonable purpose, to constitute a levying of war.”[15]

        Russian bot army?

        • Well, it will be interesting if the two witnesses to Trump’s treason are Russian Hackers..

          It is a lot easier to try Trump on other charges, Treason Trials have never really ended well for the US Gov’t..

          I know I am getting ahead of myself, given there is a good chance Trump will run in 2020..

          • Chicago joe

            There is a sure fire way to prevent that

            GOTV for interim elections.

      • j.martindale

        And violated the constitutional emoluments clause on multiple occasions. Also conspiracy to obtain stolen property–e-mails.

      • popebuck1

        As I recall learning it, the Founders deliberately made “treason” a crime almost impossible to prosecute – because under various monarchs, the charge of treason was a political tool, thrown around for anything down to “talking disrespectfully of the King.”

        But “conspiracy” sure as hell IS a crime.

  • Bryan

    Obstruction of justice, anyone?

  • Lazycrockett

    Yeah, but treason is, motherfucker.

  • Steverino

    It’s not the collusion, it’s the conspiracy. And, as always, the cover up.

  • Do Something Nice

    It is a fake crime I tell you. A fake crime.

  • Sam_Handwich

    this isn’t good …. will only feed the “deep state” BS

    • Tomcat

      Isn’t it obvious by now that they are not impartial?

    • Boreal

      That is their intent.

    • DreadPikathulhu

      … because there is absolutely no reason presumably educated people would disparage Trump and all that he stands for.

      • Jim Maloney

        Especially since he disparaged their former leader of the FBI. I read earlier this year that many there are pissed at him when they usually like Republican presidents.

    • -M-

      I remember when the New York FBI office was determined to investigate the absurd allegations from the ‘Clinton Cash’ propaganda hit piece like it was just last year.

  • Harveyrabbit
    • bzrd

      and, as some think,
      if you don’t get caught

  • hdtex
    • Friday

      So mote it be. 🙂

    • drbrentzenobia

      An obvious fake: his hands are too big.

      • JCF

        You’ll note that in almost EVERY cartoon or meme of Drumpf, that’s the case.

  • Ragnar Lothbrok

    Yeah just keep saying that.
    Hope you all end up in GITMO lol ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    • dagobarbz, fine Italian shoes

      GITMO basement. And if there isn’t one, build it and put them in it, lock it, and fagheddaboutit.

  • Reality.Bites

    Important rule for being a crook: Crooked lawyers are fine for drang up crooked deals. When you’re actually facing prosecution you want a real lawyer

  • CanuckDon

    If it’s not a crime, then why hide it? Admit that the Trump administration colluded with Russia to try to win the US election.

  • Steverino

    Cue the tap dance music…

  • HaHaHa

    it’s not gay if you’re the top……I guess i’m gay…..

  • DreadPikathulhu

    I just want to crawl into a hole and pull the earth over myself. The absolute worst people hold total power and there is nothing that can be done except hold out hope for Mueller or the midterms.

  • TexasBoy

    Well, let’s just wait and see about that, OK, Mr. lawyer man?

  • another_steve

    The true crime are those glasses of his.

  • Ragnar Lothbrok
    • SoCalGal20

      That’s like a weekend of Trump golfing. STFU GOP traitors.

    • And how much did their benghazi scams run?

    • OdieDenCO

      “Mueller could spend $1 trillion and it would be well worth it” YES!
      and probably better for the economy.

    • MarkOH

      They spent over $80-100 million on Hilary!

  • what a smarmy looking fuck.

    • William

      He’s another of the lizard people.

    • MaryJOGrady

      He is a creation of the loathsome Pat Robertson. One of Pat Robertson’s affiliates is the ACLJ; Sekulow was its founding director and got his equally disgusting son a cushy job there. Cute initials, eh? It’s supposed to be the hateful Jeebusite version of the ACLU, but it has a lot of competition these days from outfits like the Becket Fund and the Alliance for Religious Liberty.

  • boobert

    Maybe, but obstruction of justice is !

  • Conspiracy is a crime.. ditto with obstruction of Justice..

  • Sam_Handwich
    • safari

      I had to kill Bob Morton because he made a mistake. Now it’s time to erase that mistake.

    • Gustav2

      How could he lie to the VP when you all knew what he was doing and directed him to do it?

    • safari

      And just like that he shoots himself in the legal foot.

      • OdieDenCO

        remember, kellyann taught us to believe what donny seems to say not what he actually said.*

        *may be mixing excesses and liars.

    • SoCalGal20

      So his actions during the transition were lawful. What about after the transition?

      • bzrd

        well, you know, a few Merry Xmas phone calls to the russkis are always the thing to do during a transition

        • OdieDenCO

          1 to 2 months early as I recollect. guess he was trying to beat the rush-ski

  • dagobarbz, fine Italian shoes

    So, what’s the difference between ‘collusion,’ ‘collaboration,’ and ‘conspiracy?’

    • Gustav2

      There is no Fed law against collusion. The other two, yes.

      He is, and they have been, playing a game of semantics.

    • safari

      Kellyanne hasn’t given us a flashcard lesson on that yet.

  • Oh my fucking God. There isn’t a crime called “collusion” because in criminal statutes it’s called “conspiracy.” Like, for example, 18 U.S. Code § 371 – “Conspiracy to commit offense or to defraud United States,” one of the crimes that Paul Manafort was charged with.

    I know that Sekulow is just trying to spin this, but seriously, media outlets have their own criminal justice beat reporters who know the difference and can translate between common colloquial usage (“collusion”) and legal usage (“conspiracy”).

    • William

      It’s like the difference between calling a liquor store robbery a hold-up versus armed robbery.

  • MBear

    Spin it, and thy fate shall be with thine traitorous brethren

  • SoCalGal20

    Wow that’s some A+ legal work there! The CHARGE (if there were to be any) is conspiracy. And obstruction of justice is what took down Nixon and will probably get Trump. 🙂

  • Halou

    We’ve long since passed the “There was no collusion..” stage. We’ve shot through the “..but if there was it wasn’t by our guys..” stage, and now we’re going full speed into the “..but if it was then it wasn’t illegal..” stage.

  • JWC

    Sekulow + Cobbb do not equal Mueller

    • Jean-Marc in Canada

      Hell, they barely equal gum on the sidewalk.

  • Robert Adams

    You say “tomato” I say “tomahto”.

    • Ben in Oakland

      You say tomato. I say tomato. They’re saying platypus.

  • OdieDenCO

    “Nothing about the guilty plea or the charge implicates anyone other than Mr. Flynn,” Cobb said.
    totally true. but we all know flynn did so much more than lie to the FBI.

    “there is no crime of collusion”
    again totally true. but there is the crime of conspiracy. conspiracy to commit obstruction. conspiracy to commit espionage. conspiracy to commit {insert crime here} any number of which there is ample evidence of to “Lock Him Up”

  • geoffalnutt

    Russia is our enemy. That puts a different spin on it, I would think. It would NOT be declared “treason”, however, as we never declared war on Russia. The Rosenbergs were actually executed for “espionage”, I believe. In this case labels really ARE important!

  • Jean-Marc in Canada

    Oh dear, my twitter cup runneth over this day….

    • Halou

      Treason is a misdemeanor.
      But failing to stand when someone sings a song, or failing to wave your hand at bit of cloth or “our flag”? Fire the son of a bitch, lock them up! How dare they not be patriotically correct! How dare they hurt the Dotard’s feelings!!!

  • jimbo65

    How about we start calling it by its proper name; conspiracy. Is it a crime now asshole?

  • GanymedeRenard

    Collusion no. TREASON yes.

  • This is going to be the right wing talking point going forward. “Even if they did collude with Russia, there’s nothing wrong/illegal about that.” smh

  • ClevelandJim

    Um, yeah. This is one of Trump’s lawyers who felt the need to lawyer-up a few months ago, isn’t it?

    • DonnaLee

      Yeah, I think he’s currently trying to hide under a rock to avoid notice.

  • BobSF_94117

    Collusion is not a crime. Collusion that includes crimes like cyber spying makes all parties guilty of all crimes conducted toward the goal of working together.


  • bkmn

    I can’t wait for Suckyoulow to be indicted by Mueller.

  • David

    Dotard only hires “the best”.

  • Tom G

    High crimes and misdemeanors is decided by the House as I understand it. There need be no law about what they feel the president dies to tarnish the office.

  • jerry
    • drbrentzenobia

      I watched Matlock in a bar last night. The sound was off, but I think I got the gist of it.

      • jerry

        Like “Murder She Wrote”, I think every episode had the same plot.

    • Kruhn

      One of the best lines on film.

  • tropicgirl

    Except there is absolutely no crime involved…

    binga a bing bing…

  • tropicgirl

    I colluded with Russia… just yesterday…

  • kareemachan
    • tropicgirl

      so what? How much did they receive from Britain? assuming everyone is legally declaring…

  • tropicgirl

    Stop the ridiculous nonsense about Russia. Russia has ALWAYS been our ally…

    ***Revolutionary War – helped our country keep from starving while Enland was seriously sanctioning trade to kill us.

    ***in 1780, in the wake of the American War of Independence, Russian Empress Ekaterina II rejected the request of King George III to send Russian troops to America to support the English

    ***The 1812 Anglo American War – remained loyal to the US while Britain was still the enemy. British burned down the White House at this time.

    ***Civil War – remained loyal to Lincoln amid more fears of British undermining the Union. During the American Civil War the government of Russian Emperor Alexander II sent its fleet to New York and San Francisco in 1863-1864. The presence of the Russian fleet in American ports was in the interest of the U.S. to save its Union.

    ***Crimean War – US remained loyal to Russia, against Britain and France, maintaining it as a Christian nation. A big group of American doctors joined the Russian army during the Crimean War and saved the lives of many soldiers in the besieged Sevastopol as well as in the hospitals of other cities, including Kerch and Simferopol.

    ***WWI – Russia was our ally until they withdrew to complete their own revolution. The United States was the first country that supported it on behalf of the administration of President Woodrow Wilson.

    ***WWII – Russia lost millions of men fighting against Hitler and was first to liberate the concentration camps.

    ***Cold War – Communist leadership, along with an American president avoided a nuclear war encouraged by the globalists.

    ***Berlin Wall – After which the Russians kicked out the Bolsheviks, many of who came to this country and joined the Democrats.

    ***The Fight Against ISIS – Russia is the only country sincerely fighting ISIS, and not playing games of supporting them, like France and England and Obama/Hillary.

    • Dazzer

      Will you be trolling here often?

      If so, we’ll need to draw up a bingo card just for your comments.

      • tropicgirl

        are you the police here? the big bozz?

        the adultly autistic?

        what do you require for passage into your safe space?

        • Dazzer

          Oh dear. You’re one of those trolls.

          Oh well, never mind. You’ll improve over time.

          When you’re worth more than a dog chew, we’ll let you know.

          • tropicgirl

            who is ‘we’? are you legion?

          • Gianni

            …. one of THOSE trolls…. I like that. She’s clever with insults/words – not so much at all. “Russia has ALWAYS been our ally.” …..that alone shows the depth of the thinking.

        • 2guysnamedjoe

          Oh, stop with the victimhood.

      • drbrentzenobia

        Is there a “Russian troll” area, or is that a Free space?

        • Dazzer

          I have no idea. I’m very old these days.

          To be honest, I just like observing a quality bit of trolling these days.

          • coram nobis

            This one doesn’t sound like a bot.

          • Dazzer

            No, not a bot. But s/he’s clearly only got a briefing sheet to work from.

            You see their ilk all the time on the Guardian. I think they must do shift work.

          • coram nobis

            They need better research. The Russian fleet deployment of 1863 was their history, after all, more than ours.

            Also, here’s a fun fact: in 1862-63, both Russia and the U.S. had something in common, in that they were both dealing with armed rebellion, in Poland and the South respectively — something the Brits were quick to point out.

          • Dazzer

            Ultimately, the British were getting more money from the rest of its empire than they ever got from the Americas.

            If you look at the proceedings in Parliament at the time of the American War of Independence, in many ways, it came down to an argument about financing. The money fund further war just got cut off.

    • coram nobis

      As for 1863, the redeployment got the Russian fleet away from their harbors while they were having a crisis with Britain, so it was very much in the Tsar’s interest to get them out to the open sea. (Although the Russians in San Francisco were useful when the City caught fire).

      • tropicgirl

        Point is… they supported Lincoln and the state… Britain never stopped trying to gain control of this country, really…

        Britain did support the south, with varying degrees of stories and evidence… Just 1812, was it? they burned down our WH?

        I’m just saying what they did… They could easily have sided with the south, if they wanted the state broken up…

        (I was actually on the ‘other’ side, also…)

        • coram nobis

          Closest Britain ever got was a speech by Lord Palmerston (then foreign minister) hinting at recognition. Britain’s textile workers suffered from the cotton blockade, but were still pro-Union (or at least anti-slavery) and Britain learned quickly enough that they could grow cotton in India — and their shirtwaist industry was moving toward linen anyway. (Pope Pius IX did recognize the CSA, but nothing came of that, and Napoleon III was pro-rebel but got bogged down in Mexico).

          It’s not so simple.

          • tropicgirl

            No, you are right, its not simple, but Russia openly supported Lincoln. Not England…. so much…

            The British food and supply blockades have been practiced since the original founders against this country, which Russia has usually countered… in our favor

            There are stories of complicit pirates, and various other things…

          • Gianni

            It is apparent that tropicgirl hasn’t read the history or noticed that Russia sort-of changed since the commie revolution. All that ancient ‘friendliness’ she keeps talking about is so long gone. Most of us try to live in the here and now.

    • Gianni

      You are either Russian or truly delusional. …Russia has ALWAYS been our ally… ALWAYS – in caps, no less.

    • Dayglo
    • 2guysnamedjoe

      And don’t forget — when Khrushchev threatened,”We will bury you!” he meant it in a kind and caring way.

    • agcons

      All this, and all the way from beautiful downtown Novgorod, too.


      Could you be more obvious? We don’t engage trolls here, but bots are exposed and exploited. Enjoy your stay, but you are wasting your time. The political and intellectual level of this blog and its readers is breathtaking.

  • Blobby

    “Nothing about the guilty plea or the charge implicates anyone other than Mr. Flynn,”

    Of course this is technically correct and they spin it this way to the public, but behind closed doors, they’d be fools to think that what Flynn has to say won’t spur more charges that will implicate many others than himself.

    • tropicgirl

      There is nothing he can say that will change anything… Trump hasn’t spoken to the FBI. No lies, nothing improper…

      where is it?

      • Blobby

        I’m talking about what Flynn will tell the FBI, ya douche. I’m sure he’ll have information that could easily implicate those in the WH.

  • -M-

    Try looking under conspiracy.

  • coram nobis

    Collusion? The legal word for that is “conspiracy”, as these barracudas should know.

    If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
    — 18 U.S. Code § 371

    • tropicgirl

      what offense?

      • coram nobis

        Whatever underlying offense Mueller finds. A $15m offer to Flynn for the kidnap to Turkey of that Gülen fellow, for instance, would involve the kidnap and/or bribery charges along with possible conspiracy, solicitation, accessory or some other accompanying (inchoate) offense for others.

        Whoever, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony that has as an element the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against property or against the person of another in violation of the laws of the United States, and under circumstances strongly corroborative of that intent, solicits, commands, induces, or otherwise endeavors to persuade such other person to engage in such conduct, shall be imprisoned not more than one-half the maximum term of imprisonment or (notwithstanding section 3571) fined not more than one-half of the maximum fine prescribed for the punishment of the crime solicited, or both; or if the crime solicited is punishable by life imprisonment or death, shall be imprisoned for not more than twenty years.
        — 18 U.S. Code § 373(a)

        • tropicgirl

          so you’ve got the description but not the actual crime?

          • coram nobis

            If you’ve got collusion or conspiracy or whatever, they’re up to something and it’s up to a prosecutor to find it. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

          • tropicgirl

            you have a definition.. not a crime…

            you have to actually have it, to ‘have it’.

            overlying, underlying, or around-lying… nada…

          • coram nobis

            Take a course in U.S. Crim. Law and then we’ll discuss further.

          • agcons

            That’s going to be difficult on her trolling schedule, the poor thing.

          • Gianni

            Gaslighting – it’s very popular with Donnie, too.

      • Ann Kah

        You would appear to be lost, sweetie. Are you sure this is the blog you want?

        • agcons

          It’s probably the blog she’s been assigned.

  • kareemachan

    “Collusion isn’t a crime”
    “Everybody lies”

  • lymis

    I thought there were laws against foreign countries interfering in US elections. Colluding with that would be a crime.

  • JCF
  • Oh, Parker

    Collusion isn’t a crime, but conspiracy is, and that’s where Mueller is headed.

    • tropicgirl

      Conspiracy to do what? People are nuts.

      • Gianni

        If you haven’t been able to figure that out or discern their purpose by now, you really haven’t been tuning in at all.

  • Randy Maifeld

    Since collusion isn’t a crime, let’s just go with obsruction and treason.

  • Dayglo

    Normalize away.

  • Wynter Marie Starr

    Is he fucking joking? There are thousands in prisons for collusion. Do they actually think they are above the law? They will be finding out differently in the near future. I can’t wait for the blood bath.

    • 2guysnamedjoe

      Lee Harvey Oswald didn’t commit a crime because there is no federal crime called “shooting a gun.”

      (Hi, WMS!)

      • Wynter Marie Starr

        Hi my sweeties! Feels good to be off the tootsies and on JMG reading stuff from actual smart folks.

  • 2guysnamedjoe

    Dump hired Sekulow because he looks like a lawyer.

  • Ann Kah

    “There’s no collusion, and it isn’t a crime anyway, and they did it first, and there was no collusion, and look! Squirrel!”

  • CB

    He’s parsing words, of course. Conspiracy would be the crime.

  • Franciscan

    Republicans have been doing this for so long, and reaping minimal consequences, that they assume it doesn’t apply to them. As for instance, Nixon’s overtures to South Viet Nam before his election (he wanted them not to approve a peace treaty sought by the United States); as for instance William Casey and company’s conspiracy to get Iran to postpone releasing the hostages prior to the 1980 election; as for instance Vice President George Bush senior and his minions funding counterinsurgency in Central America, contrary to law and the Congress, by drug and gun running in the Iran-Contra affair. And I’m sure in many other cases before and since.

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  • ted-

    These people must really have a reality in their minds that’s so different to the rest of the world or completely mentally dysfunctional

  • KevInPDX

    Conspiracy is a crime. If you say no collusion 3x in the same statement there’s collusion and you’re covering.

  • Gianni

    My dictionary says that ‘conspiracy’ is a synonym for ‘collusion’. Tricky lawyer trying to split legal language hairs. Has he ever heard the expression about Trying To Make A Silk Purse Out Of A Sows Ear? They’re all such sad cases. A whole crew of useless liars.

  • Jay Sekulow is one of those guys who reminds me to make a GIF of myself pointing and laughing.

  • Nowhereman

    If they colluded with a foreign adversary in order to throw the election, then THAT is a crime. Just as firing Comey was legal, but if he did it to obstruct justice, then THAT is a crime. Where does he find these lawyers? I guess these are the only ones who will work for him knowing that he only pays 30 cents on the dollar.