SPAIN: Catalonia Officials Declare Landslide 90% Vote For Secession After Violent Referendum [VIDEO]

The Associated Press reports:

Catalonia’s regional government declared a landslide win for the “yes” side in a disputed referendum on independence from Spain that degenerated into ugly scenes of mayhem on Sunday, with more than 800 people injured as riot police attacked peaceful protesters and unarmed civilians gathered to cast their ballots.

Catalonia has “won the right to become an independent state,” Catalan president Carles Puigdemont said after the polls closed, adding that he would keep his pledge to declare independence unilaterally from Spain if the “yes” side wins.

“Today the Spanish state wrote another shameful page in its history with Catalonia,” Puigdemont added, saying he would appeal to the European Union to look into alleged human rights violations during the vote.

Catalan regional government spokesman Jordi Turull told reporters early Monday that 90 percent of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted chose the “yes” side in favor of independence. He said nearly 8 percent of voters rejected independence and the rest of the ballots were blank or void. He said 15,000 votes were still being counted.

More from Reuters:

The head of the Catalan regional government on Sunday opened the door to a potential declaration of independence of Catalonia from Spain after a day of tensions in the northeastern region where police were deployed to thwart an independence vote.

“On this day of hope and suffering, Catalonia’s citizens have earned the right to have an independent state in the form of a republic,” Carles Puigdemont said in a televised address, surrounded by members of his government.

“My government, in the next few days will send the results of today’s vote to the Catalan Parliament, where the sovereignty of our people lies, so that it can act in accordance with the law of the referendum,” he also said.

  • FAEN

    Not a surprise.

  • Silver Badger

    What’s next? Tanks in the streets?

    • FAEN

      That wouldn’t surprise me either.

    • Lumpy Gaga

      Flirt!

  • SDG

    Amazing how human beings just can’t get along.

  • DaddyRay

    I will cross Spain off my vacation list for a couple of years until the dust settles – this could get ugly

    • EDinMCO

      It already is. And I agree it could get much, much worse.

    • Hue-Man

      Don’t feel bad, they don’t want you. (Google Spain anti-tourist) From August.

      Multiple groups in Barcelona have merged together in a campaign against tourism in the city, with numerous incidents of violence, vandalism and severe public disorder.

      Protest group Arran Països Catalans has warned of more attacks after a series of violent campaigns in holiday hotspots throughout the country.

      Fresh threats of violence have also spread to Majorca, with radicals carrying flare guns targeted diners at a Marina restaurant in Palma, screaming “go home”.

      http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/840042/barcelona-spain-holidays-anti-tourist-protests-go-home-graffiti-violence-tui-travel

      • Do Something Nice

        That is a bit overstated. Barcelona has been at or beyond capacity, tourist-wise, for a few years now. With the introduction of more than 40,000 illegal AirBnB rentals and now being accommodate several cruise ships at the same time, it is a real shitshow. There is a radical youth group of a right-wing party committing vandalism, but mostly for the attention.

        Talk to most people in Barcelona and the will tell you they like tourists but tourism needs to be regulated.

        • Paul

          I’d take anything the Express prints with a huge mountain of salt too.

      • vorpal 😼

        Very sad. I was there exactly one year ago and had one of the best times in my life. The people, food, and culture of Barcelona were incredible.

        • pepón

          Visit other Spanish cities. There are really beautiful places. You will have a great time, eat good food, and will not be bothered by nationalist BS.

          I can’t wait for Catalonia to be independent.

      • pepón

        Remember, those are Catalan nationalists! (In Majorca too)

        Arran Països Catalans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arran_(organization)

    • GanymedeRenard

      No, no, no, no, no… Regardless of politics, Spain as a whole is one of the GAY-FRIENDLIEST (if not THE most gay friendly) country/ies in the world. Full stop.

  • Lazycrockett

    K I’ll say I know next to nothing bout Catalonia and Spain’s relation so why the push for independence? and doesn’t Catalonia have a long fight ahead of itself to become a member of the EU, building diplomatic relations, economic relations as well as an infrastructure of a nation?

  • boobert

    There are rigged elections in the world, but it would be pretty hard to believe that 90% was rigged.

    • DaddyRay

      90% of 42.3%

      “Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday’s vote. The turnout was 42.3%.”

      • Hue-Man

        If I were a NO voter, I would have been afraid to vote. My understanding from past polling is that a free and fair vote would be defeated.

    • Lizard

      To quote John Oliver, “A good rigged election should be like a fine spring day–high sixties to low seventies.”

  • DaddyRay
  • Ken

    Having lived in Spain in my 20s, and having returned to the country quite a few times, this makes me sad. It’s not because 90% of the voters voted to secede, it’s about the process. The federal government did everything they could to stop this referendum, including the use of police and military force, and In doing so, they only (and understandably) emboldened the separatists, while making it far more difficult for moderate voters to go to the polls and express themselves. My only hope right now is that the end result will be peaceful. The government should have backed off to allow a real referendum — one devoid of fear tactics — to take place.

    • leastyebejudged

      This was a real referendum.

    • BobSF_94117

      Why should a government allow a vote for succession? It undermines the entire structure of Spain and of the EU.

      • Mark_in_MN

        Why shouldn’t a people have a right to self-determination?

        • boatboy_srq

          Depends on whether this is self-determination, or more FSB-agitation. Follow the money here.

          • Mark_in_MN

            The notion of Catalonian independence hardly started with Russian agitation.

          • boatboy_srq

            No, it didn’t. But where did this “referendum” come from? It’s a Catalan construct that’s barely two years old. Madrid never signed off, and the independence movement is hosting their Web presence from Russia. US Southern/Rural HeteroXtian Conservatistism didn’t start with Russians either. Neither did UKIP. But all of them have been susceptible to manipulation.

          • Paul

            I think it’s been shown Putin is more interested in looking for existing cracks and exploiting them. Much like Facebook running Russian paid for ads about BLM to users in Ferguson.

          • Jim in MN

            No offense, Mark, but do you even know much about Spain or it’s constitution? Or the people who’ve been funneling money and resources into this “referendum”?

          • Mark_in_MN

            Catalonia, like the other regions of Spain, have a great deal of autonomy, but all of that autonomy is incomplete and partial to varying degrees. Catalonian independence has also not been a recently developed idea. Indeed, the idea of a unified Spain is a fairly late development in the history of the Iberian peninsula.

            My concern is the principle of self-determination. The legitimacy of that principle isn’t determined by who is funding it. If we want to undermine Russian attempts to destabilize various parts of the world, then it is up to us to not allow these things to destabilize us. Clamping down and preventing the referendum, utilizing centralized power to squash it, plays into the destabilizing machinations of Putin.

          • Jim in MN

            A referendum that doesn’t include everyone. Convenient to neglect that part of the equation. It’s complicated but not THAT complicated. Want a legitimate referendum? Let Spain as a whole vote. Which was, btw, flatly rejected.

          • Mark_in_MN

            The people who should decide independence or continued connection to Spain for Catalonia are the residents of Catalonia. It would then be for the central Spanish government, through it’s representatives elected from across Spain, to work out a mutually agreeable parting of the ways. Someone in Madrid should’t have a say over whether the governed in Catalonia continue to give their consent to the Spanish government.

            The problem here is that the Spanish government worked to squash and render illegitimate any attempt to even ascertain if the people of Catalonia still give their consent to the current governmental arrangement. I cannot support that use of power, and find it highly inappropriate.

          • Jim in MN

            I don’t know how to say this without out sounding offensive, but really, you have no idea what you are talking about. Catalunya and Spanish Parliament have been negotiating for decades and the CENTRAL issue to this entire thing is that Catalunya pays more in taxes (because it generates more income) that other regions of Spain. Ironically Minnesota does the same. And if you were paying attention at all you would know that the people of Catalunya did not vote by a majority to separate, even if that were permissible by the Spanish Constitution, which it isn’t. The majority of separatists voted to leave and thats all that happened. Unless you are Spanish, your family is Spanish, what you find inappropriate is sort of…inappropriate. Thats what I find offensive, so many people with so many opinions who have zero idea of the situation. You are basically listing a bunch of talking points that conveniently neglect actual facts.

          • Mark_in_MN

            You are lumping together what for me are separate issues. I know that a majority of Catalonians didn’t vote for independence. The results that were announced, if they are even accurate, are hardly legitimate because no fair and free vote was allowed. I do not think that this vote can legitimately be used to support independence for the region, and it would be wrong and inappropriate to use it in that way. Whether independence for this or other regions of Spain is a good thing or not is another issue. I make no claims one way or another on that. At all, although you seem to be trying to read my comments as pertaining to that issue.

            The question I have been addressing is whether a region and people should be able to determine their own sovereignty or governance. We have tilted strongly toward weighing territorial integrity over self-determination. We think that keeping a current nation intact is the most important thing in these matters. I strongly disagree with that. Self-determination should matter and territorial integrity should be of little (if any) concern.

          • Jim in MN

            So basically, if Orange Country, California wanted to say adios to the United States and speak for all of California they could?

          • Mark_in_MN

            Orange County could speak for itself, not the whole of California. But we aren’t talking about a county within a state, we’re talking about the near equivalent of a state here.

          • Jim in MN

            Also before you or anyone begins to criticize my opinion, Keep in mind that my mother is a Spanish. I grew up in Spain, thru Franco’s dictatorship. His death, the forming of its Constitution and Juan Carlos’ creation of its government. Speak to what to you know, not to what you’ve been fed by a skewed often money driven media.

          • Jim in MN

            Really glad to see someone else get this.

        • Jim in MN

          Why should one state in the u.s. not be able to break away from the rest on a state wide vote? Easy to twist what’s happening and disregard the voice of dozens of millions of Spaniards on what amounts to .0005% of a vote that MOST people in Catalunya didn’t bother to even go to (because it’s been declared illegal by the highest court in The COUNTRY).

          • Mark_in_MN

            A unilateral leaving would be a problem. If a state wants to leave, it is agreed to by the Congress, and approved by a state’s voters, I don’t see an inherent problem with that. The question is why we should think such an orderly process (as opposed to unilateral rebellion) should be inherently unacceptable. Most people didn’t go, that is correct. It can hardly be a legitimate mandate for independence. The central government made sure it couldn’t be seen as legitimate. The problem here is not that Catalonia tried to hold the referendum but that the central authorities sought to prevent and undermine it, rather than find a way for an orderly process to be undertaken.

          • Jim in MN

            Central authorities who have a voice and a vote in Spanish parlament who WERE elected by a majority. Do you think Congress would allow California to vote to secede? Think about that for a moment.

          • Mark_in_MN

            As long as a mutual agreement for partying ways could be reached, I think it would be shameful for Congress not to allow such a process to go ahead. There is no reason to think that any government or set of boarders should be perpetual and never change. Those boarders and governments that organize the life of communities within them should be subject to change as those so governed desire. Isn’t that one of the founding principles of our own nation and its sovereignty. If no state or region can peacefully leave its current nation for independence or joining another state, then the existence of the United States (or, for that matter, just about any modern state around the globe) also needs to be called into question.

          • Jim in MN

            So backwards it’s unbelievable. How long have you lived in Spain? To the term “self determination” I respond “to the greater good”. A notion in short supply these days. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but reading what you’d say I’d say it’s based on talking points that the media relentlessly spews, without, speaking to anyone in Spain but the separatist’s movement.

          • Mark_in_MN

            Backwards? Self-determination is about the seeking the collective good for one’s community. The greater good for the people is up to the people whose good is being determined. The greater good for Catalonia would be up to Catalonians, not people in Madrid or Seville. The bonds need to be mutual, not forced. The greater good is not found by forcing ongoing connections when they are no longer seen as beneficial to the people of a region. But this is effectively colonial thinking you’re pushing here.

            By the way, I haven’t been listening to separatist movement talking points at all. I’m reacting to the heavy handed power being used by the Spanish central government here. I’d have the same critique if the government of the UK sought to prevent and disrupt a referendum on Scottish, Welsh, or Northern Ireland seeking independence (or union with Ireland in the case of the latter), or if Canada did the same with an effort in Quebec. Whether the independence of these regions is a good idea or not is another matter. It is not inherently illegitimate for such regions to seek independence in a peaceful and orderly way, and the government of the nation they are a part of should deal with it honestly, honorably, and in good faith.

            Thank’s to the use of power to undermine and stop the voting, we don’t know what the will of the people of Catalonia might be. This should be deeply concerning in itself, even if one really believes that independence is not in the best interest of either Catalonia or Spain as a whole. I have no opinion about whether that is the case or not. The legitimacy of seeking independence is not determined by whether it’s a good idea to support it or not, nor is it determined by who is backing it. It is and should be determined only by the people of the region for which independence is proposed.

          • Jim in MN

            Well thats where we fundamentally disagree, you’re idea of community ends at the stop sign at the end of your street. Mine ends with a united country, a united Europe.

          • Mark_in_MN

            You’re drawing my approach a bit too narrowly, which is no doubt partly to portray the idea of self-determination of communities and regions as petty, small, and ridiculous in contrast to you’re holding country or even continent as primary. I see no reason to hold current national boundaries, or even continental interests, as the highest concern. And, yes, this appears to be a fundamental disagreement.

      • Do Something Nice

        Says someone living in a country that “illegally seceded” from another country. Nobody in the US has any standing to talk about what is legal in this case.

        And I don’t support independence. Find another reason.

        • Jim in MN

          I can, I’m half Spanish and living in Spain. I waited to say anything until after this referendum but enough is enough. No one is explaining WHY the government did what it did, & while I’m no fan of Rajoy, the closest the U.S. has come to anything like this is the desegregation of the south and who today but a racist orange pumpkin would disagree with that happening?

      • Joseph Miceli

        Because when you take away the people’s voice they WILL find a way to be heard. It usually involves riots and explosions. I’d much rather it involve peaceful voting.

        • Jim in MN

          Excuse me but what about the 90% of the rest of Spain’s Voice?! You are referring to one region (akin to one state in the U.S.) – o the country as a whole which is farrrr against acatalunya’s separation. This isn’t democracy it’s fascism.

          • Joseph Miceli

            Excuse me…but what I actually wrote that you seem to be so angry about boils down to “voting is better than armed rebellion and terrorism.” I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear. I do not endorse or condemn this vote. I simply wrote that voting is better than dead people, which is what happens when people are denied their voice.

          • Jim in MN

            They haven’t been denied their voice they are part of the Spanish Parlamenr with elected official from their region like every other region. Wikipedia it, please.

          • Joseph Miceli

            Wow, you sure are an asshole. If you ever take the dildos out of your ears you MIGHT just become aware of how your “argument” is a red herring, but I don’t hold out much hope for that.
            In conclusion, please follow these directions: Remove your pants and underwear to expose your fat, pale, hairy ass. Spread your legs shoulder width apart and bend over to expose your anus. Using Crisco brand shortening, lube up your anus. Wipe hands. Grab “Wikipedia” with both hands and insert into anus until Wikepedia is at maximum depth. Remain like that until you stop being a know it all, arrogant supercilious dick.

          • Jim in MN

            Trolliish behavior blocked.

          • Joseph Miceli

            AW!!! I’m sure I’ll miss you.
            Yawn.

        • Jim in MN

          No ones voice was being suspended they are represented in Spanish government like every other region of Spain and have been.

          • Joseph Miceli

            That’s like saying Democrats have an equal voice in elections as Republicans here in the United States in spite of gerrymandering voter suppression the new Jim Crow laws . If there is even a perception that the voting is rigged people will feel as if they have been denied their voice . You know I ‘m right. This is politics . Perception trumps truth.

          • Joseph Miceli

            As long as they don’t say they want to leave.

          • Jim in MN

            I think the vast majority of Catalunyans did say they wanted to leave. And if the Spanish Constitution allowed a minority of any region to decide the region and country’s fate they would have. Folks in the u.s. hear A very small amount of what occurred and is occurring and they certainly don’t know the history behind the separatist movement and the enormous concessions Spain had tried to make to Cataluyna and its autonomy a decade before this “referendum” where 62+% percent of Catalunyans decided to follow the rule of law and not participate. It’s so easy for people to judge what they don’t know and aren’t made aware of. Google and Wikipedia are your friend in cases like this if your willing to take the time to understand why what happened happened.

          • Joseph Miceli

            You know something ? I made a very generic comment about voting being a pressure relief valve for a society and that if that was taken away they find other ways to be heard… Like rioting and looting . You have been jumping on me with hobnail boots from your supercilious position of informed superiority and frankly you can just go fuck yourself . Have a lovely day .

        • BobSF_94117

          Spain is a modern democracy. They do vote. That doesn’t mean everyone gets to vote about everything they want. For example, we go to a heck of a lot of trouble to keep right-wing Christians from voting away our marriage rights.

          • Joseph Miceli

            Every society needs a pressure relief valve. This vote is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. I really don’t think your argument applies. We don’t suppress Christian votes, we compete with them in the arena of public opinion… and we are winning for the most part!

          • BobSF_94117

            This vote is a symptom of Russia’s attempt to delegitimize European democracy.

            Ethnic/cultural minorities have rarely had it so good as under the modern EU system. Catalans are more free to be Catalans now than they have been in centuries. The model of nation states with strong regional and local protections for sub-national groups is under attack, and it shouldn’t be. It works.

          • Joseph Miceli

            Great! In that case why isn’t the Spanish government pointing this out so that they can delegitimize the Catalan separatists? Incompetence trophies for EVERYONE!!!!

          • Jim in MN

            They have been. Since 2006.

      • Manny Espinola

        Secession, not succession

      • ChrisMorley

        Because the UN Charter insists ‘self-determination’ is a foundational right of all peoples.

        ‘The Purposes of the United Nations are:
        ….
        Article 2
        To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;’

        https://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html

        • Jim in MN

          Incorrect interpretation. Catalan has and continues to have a voice in Spain’s parliament by elected officials from Catalunya.

          • Halou

            The same officials who called for the referendum no less, calling the Spanish government fascist, for what? Not having them all arrested and/or executed.

            I’d like to know what the Catalan reaction would be if Spain acted as a country like Russia would, having the regional leaders imprisoned for 5 years each while the ‘lesser’ activists get nailed on vague treason and terrorism charges.

            Yeah, the police action was bad but if Spain truly wanted to crush the movement there are far worse things they could have done.

          • Joseph Miceli

            Yes, and you participated equally in marriage back when you were free to marry any woman who said yes.

          • Jim in MN

            Another interesting analogy but marriage equality was won thru legal measures and the Supreme zcourt in the U.S. not thru illegal referendums. The democrat/republican analogy is great assuming you are talking abou tea party republican subverting the will of the U.S. Supreme a court after yelling her their voices were not heard (even with members in Congress to voice them). This all sounds very familiar to me.

        • BobSF_94117

          Nonsense. Democracy is self-determination. The United Nations does not exist to tear nations apart.

          Putin’s fools and Putin’s tools.

    • boatboy_srq

      I have friends with connections in Catalonia. Independence has approx. 40% approval – but the Catalonians who want to remain part of Spain also knew that the referendum was not legal, and likely stayed home. The results are skewed.

      Doesn’t help that leading the “#Catalonia” tweetfest are Assange and Wikileaks, or that the “independence” movement moved their servers to Moscow.

      • Charles Nelson

        What????….The Kremlin would never try to stir up trouble in a European country.

      • Jim in MN

        Exactly true

        • Jim in MN

          And 40% is high and only refers to Catalunyans, not the entirety of Spain. Well said!

      • Halou

        The chief of a fringe pro-independence party with zero representation in the Catalonia regional parliament is being paraded around on Russia’s Spanish language media, he promises to make Catalonia recognize the annexation of Crimea and the seizure of the Donbas provinces.
        The reason is twofold. To convince Catalans that Russian imperialism is in their best interests, and to antagonize the Spanish into reacting against a policy that has little chance of succeeding.

    • Do Something Nice

      Well, it looks like Rajoy flinched:

      “In a television address after polls closed on Sunday in Catalonia, the Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy says the vote in the north-eastern region ‘only served to cause serious harm to coexistence’ among Spaniards but he is ‘not going to close any door’ to dialogue”

      • pepón

        PP and PSOE have offered several times to talk to nationalists, if they respect the constitution. The answer was always: “we can talk about how to make the referendum”, that is how far the nationalists will negotiate.

        https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/21/actualidad/1505984857_377624.html

        • Do Something Nice

          Good afternoon. I don’t believe anything in El Pais. Their coverage of the this has been despicable. But even that article says the objective was to block the election, which isn’t the same as dialogue about issues.

  • DaddyRay

    Anybody know if the new country plans to be part o the EU

    • FAEN

      I would think they would. But who knows.

    • Lazycrockett

      There are seven countries ahead of Catalonia and then negotiating begins. Though that isn’t going to go well with an angry Spain twisting its screws whenever it can.

      • TimCA

        It takes just one EU member state to block admission. How many EU member states with similar internal issues would vote to admit Catalonia?

        • Lazycrockett

          Precisely.

  • TampaDink

    Vlad must be elated.

    • DaddyRay

      Another successful investment

      • Leo

        This started long before Vlad but he fanned flames.

        • DaddyRay

          I realize that but with Vlad’s success in cyber manipulation it is concerning how many other countries he will fuel

          • TampaDink

            He & his regime are enjoying breaking up nations & weakening alliances, just for fun. (not)

          • bkmn

            for fun and the opportunity to make more money by stealing from Russian citizens.

          • TampaDink

            That too.

    • Lazycrockett

      Yep Chaos is a ladder.

      • Skeptical_Inquirer

        Is there any way to create chaos in Russia that Vlad would hate?

        • Lazycrockett

          Try to reduce as much natural gas and oil the Eastern European countries need. Find the laundry money operations through out the banking world and shut them down.

          • Lazycrockett

            Other than that until the millennials take to the streets and lose a lot of their lives nothing.

          • -M-

            Putin and the oligarchs enable each other. The more of a liability he becomes for them the less stable that arrangement.

            As you said:

            Freeze and seize their exfiltrated assets, block development help, more renewables to reduce the main source of income for Russia and the oligarchs.

            Add to that undermining Putin’s image by rolling back his victories:

            No Brexit, strengthen the EU and European defense, defang their trollbot weapon, get serious about cyber security, refuse to let Trump get in the way, isolate Russia further by finding areas to collaborate with China, Iran, Cuba etc.

        • TampaDink

          We could maybe find a way to exile the entire trump family to Russia.

  • JoeMyGod
  • Leo

    This was sparked generations ago, started raging about a decade ago and has now reached a tipping point.

    The economic stagnation and regional resentment amongst millennials as well as populist and separatist waves means this won’t be solved for years depending on how and when the EU wants to get involved.

    If the EU “respects” the decision and Madrid still rejects it, then what?

    I don’t wanna know.

  • bkmn

    I heard Merkel contacted the Spanish Presidente and let him know the EU was not happy with the use of police to physically injure the voters. That was a really bad move since it probably allowed the leave vote to win by a much higher margin than a non-violent response would have.

    • pepón

      I really don’t know where these news pieces are coming from, but German newspapers are saying the contrary:

      “Die Bundesregierung hatte bereits am 20. September
      Stabilität beim EU-Partner angemahnt. “Die Bundesregierung hat
      ein großes Interesse daran, dass die Stabilität in Spanien
      erhalten bleibt”, hatte ein Regierungssprecher damals gesagt.
      “Deshalb ist es wichtig, dass in allem die Rechtsstaatlichkeit –
      das heißt natürlich: die spanische Verfassung – eingehalten
      wird.” Dies sei bereits vor zwei Jahren die Haltung von
      Bundeskanzlerin Merkel gewesen und gelte heute immer noch. Es
      handele sich aber um eine “innerspanische
      Angelegenheit”. Zugleich hatte die Bundesregierung
      vor einer Eskalation gewarnt.”

      http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2017-10/katalonien-verletzte-zusammenstoesse-referendum-polizei

  • BobSF_94117

    A vote by 90% of 2.6 million in a region with a population of 7.5 million is not a mandate. It’s nothing.

    • Leo

      With that argument I guess you could argue most votes worldwide aren’t mandates.

      • BobSF_94117

        No. Most countries have better turn-out than we do. Lack of turn out in a case like this undermines the legitimacy.

        • another_steve

          Bob – What about the dismal turnout of citizens here in the U.S., every four years?

          Are all of our presidents illegitimate?

    • boatboy_srq

      90% of the cast votes. 42% of the electorate voted. Nowhere near as clearcut as you suggest.

      • BobSF_94117

        Secession by a minority, nonetheless. If it was a bad concept with Brexit, if it was a bad outcome with Trump, why is this result OK?

        • boatboy_srq

          The question really is why is anyone treating this referendum as accurate or legitimate? Regardless of Catalan independence sentiment, regardless of the tally, it’s still not an accurate poll of the province and it’s little more than red meat for the separatist base and chain-pulling by the Russians.

  • Blake J Butler

    She did exactly what she was supposed to, rip this fucker to shreds.

    https://twitter.com/CNNnewsroom/status/914163148592173056

    • TampaDink

      “He needs to shut the F up, put down his twitter & figure out what it means to be president for once in his miserable term!” Is that too long for a bumper sticker?

      • another_steve

        Probably, but we know it’s true.

        • TampaDink

          Okay….I’ll settle for a t-shirt.

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    • Oscarlating Wildely
    • ChrisMorley

      Donald Trump dedicates golf trophy to Puerto Rico amid disaster response criticism
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/02/donald-trump-puerto-rico-presidents-cup-golf-trophy-hurricane-victims

      • CarbonMade

        Wow. Creating new lows each and every day.

    • Kruhn

      Donald Trump with his stupidity incensed the fraught political debate in Puerto Rico. Having kept abreast of the political situation in Puerto Rico, I know that Carmen Yulín Cruz is an unlikely American “hero”.

      I use quotes, because although a formidable speaker and slogan-coiner, Yulín has been a poor mayor. She is imperious to the point of dictatorial and her platitudes over Puerto Ricans being American citizens fall flat when she has made her political career of arguing for a “you’re not the boss of me, now teenager” form of independence for Puerto Rico, where the island is independent, but still gets the billions of dollars it currently gets in federal funds. She’s using this opportunity to set a run for 2020 and mark my words, the visuals of her on national TV will be used in her campaign commercials. Her party does not do primaries, the person selected to run for governor is selected by her party’s board.

      Having pilloried the mayor’s bona fides and intentions, Carmen Yulín Cruz is publicly raising the alarm, which is very important. Her sense of urgency is the “bad cop” to the governor’s “good cop” approach of quietly liaising with federal agencies to organize matters.

      The funny thing is, based on the conversation I finally had with my brother yesterday, this back and forth isn’t registering in Puerto Rico. He didn’t know about it and was trying to tell me how bad things are thinking the issue was not in the national consciousness. I gave him the quick version of the story and he just shrugged. I’m guessing Mayor Cruz’s flirtation with fame may end up exposing her clay feet as it did with New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin.

      • Do Something Nice

        It is not the time for this.

        • Kruhn

          When is it? I’m putting things in context and I have skin in the game. I have a brother in San Juan who I heard from yesterday. I welcome her current efforts, but as someone who knows Puerto Rican politics, feel the need to bring things in context.

  • another_steve

    I am ready for the apocalypse. I have prepared for me a silken sheet upon which I, my husband and my cat shall meet our end.

    Join us and Jared in one final carnal jamboree.

    • FAEN

      You had me until you mentioned Vichy Barbie.

      • another_steve

        Jared will be as fine seasoning in an already perfect dish.

        His size 32 waistline and delicately-haired tasteful chest will sanctify us.

        • FAEN

          I’m a 31-32 waistline but I don’t have his delicate Man Barbie features.

          Does he have hair on his chest?

          • another_steve
          • FAEN

            I’ve never had one. Now tiramisu on the other hand-I eat too much of.

          • another_steve

            Avoid the Mallomars, babe.

            Trust me on this.

            Avoid them.

          • FAEN

            LOL-I will avoid them like the plague.

          • johncAtl

            A Big Mac and medium fries – 870 calories and 44 grams of fat. A single serving of Tiramisu at Carrabba’s – 1010 calories and 78 grams of fat. I’ll have both!

          • FAEN

            Good for you. Never had it at Carrabba’s-I make my own.

          • Adam King

            I don’t think latex grows hair.

  • Adonisus
  • safari
    • MikeBx2

      I knew I shouldn’t but I clicked play anyway.

      • Harveyrabbit

        Same here. This looks like some sort of “let’s get ready” prelude to the most disturbing orgy humankind has ever witnessed.

    • another_steve

      Devils that can dance.

    • TampaDink

      yikes!

    • Scout

      TMI !!!

    • DaddyRay

      Can’t wait to see him dancing in an orange prison jumpsuit

      • ByronK

        There’s a very good chance a desperate fellow inmate will teach him how to twerk…in the shower.

    • ByronK

      The only thing worse than watching an uptight, straight white man dance is watching Roger Stone dance. He looks like the love child of Prince Charles and Casper the Friendly Ghost.

      • UrsusArctos

        I’m SURE there’s more than videos of him dancing. He is a proud active swinger. I’m sure some couple has videos of their play, if not he probably does. Nothing much misses eventually hitting the internet. We’d better start hoarding brain bleach.

        • ByronK

          If it goes viral, I’ll have to get rid of my internet connection or invest in anti-nausea medication and a home electroshock kit.

          • UrsusArctos

            What? You aren’t all in a rush to see the full back tattoo he has of Richard Nixon? OK. I’ll apologize in advance AND loan you a cup of brain bleach. Even?

          • ByronK

            I suppose so… 😉

    • sfbob

      Roger Stone: Doin’ the Mild Thing!

    • Adam King

      That’s disgusting.

  • Scout
    • danolgb

      Unfortunately, this is probably not going to be seen by the courts as unconstitutional based on the precedent set in the case of the cheerleader forced to cheer for her rapist. While a student can’t be forced to stand for the national anthem a team member may very well be.

      https://thinkprogress.org/supreme-court-denies-justice-to-texas-cheerleader-who-refused-to-cheer-her-alleged-rapist-da4dac9d07e7/

    • Lizard

      This case is…tricky. There’s no doubt that what the coach did was wrong, but this isn’t a high school. It’s part of a football league for home-schooled kids. So…who to sue is a little difficult to determine. It isn’t affiliated with a high school, so you can’t really sue the school district as would normally be the case. Players are either home-schooled or attend private schools without football teams, so it’s not really a First Amendment case as there’s no government entity involved, as would be the case with a public school coach.

      Again, the coach was wrong and how he treated these boys is appalling. But I don’t think there’s much of a legal case to be made.

      Edit: I meant First Amendment, not Establishment Clause. Sorry about that.

      • Friday

        Actually, in a public school it’s far more clear-cut Constitutionally.

        • Lizard

          Yes, it is. But this isn’t a public school. It’s an independent football league consisting of home-schooled kids and kids from private schools, so I’m not sure there’s a case to be made because their speech was not suppressed by a government entity (which is the only kind of suppression the First Amendment covers). It’s some asshole who likes ordering kids around bullying teenagers who dare to express an opinion he doesn’t like. His behavior is reprehensible, but that doesn’t mean it’s actionable.

          • Friday

            I think I exactly misread that blurb, then, just so. No doubt the bigots are feeling their oats.

    • Adam King

      High school kids shouldn’t play football. It destroys brains and ruins lives. These kids may not know it, but being kicked off the team may have saved their lives.

  • Ninja0980

    This is going to get worse before it gets better.

    • another_steve

      Vladimir Putin to his advisers tonight:

      “Mission accomplished. Put a check next to “Spain” on the list.”

  • geoffalnutt

    Another win for Putin. Sigh.

  • Mark_in_MN

    I don’t understand why Spain should be so terribly resistant to independence for Catalonia, or the Basque Country (although that seems to have died down, at least for now), or Turkey and Iraq with respect to the Kurds, etc. Why should we pretend that boarders are somehow sacrosanct or written indelibly in stone, rather than the often arbitrary lines on a map that they are?

    • Lizard

      My guess would be money. Isn’t Catalonia is the second-highest-earning province in Spain?

    • ErikDC

      Because rather than balkanize into ever more tribal regions, Europe should be unifying.

      • Mark_in_MN

        But the instrument for that is the European Union, not maintaining larger national units that are somewhat artificial. Grant the such newly independent states quick admission to the EU and you’ve got that unity concern working fairly well, in the meantime a people with their own traditions and language also has more local control. A balance is appropriate and needed.

        • Natty Enquirer

          Catalonia has had that balance since 1979.

          • Mark_in_MN

            An so-called autonomous region has less self-determination and local control, and pretty much no voice in EU and other international matters, than an actual independent nation. It’s powers are limited, as we’ve seen here with the overreaction of the Spanish authorities to this referendum.

        • ErikDC

          This is just about money. Catalonia is rich. They think too much of their wealth goes to poorer Spaniards. Catalonia is also small. An independent Catalan nation would expect to be part of NATO, such that they could depend on larger nations like the United States, Germany, and United Kingdom to defend them in case of attack. They want to hoard money in their small enclave and assume other larger nations will provide them security. Fuck that.

          • Mark_in_MN

            I see no problem with them becoming a part of NATO. I’d welcome them. Better in than outside that alliance. I think mutual defense across Europe and across the North Atlantic is a good thing, even if burdens fall disproportionately on the larger nations (which also seems like a good and reasonable thing to me).

          • ErikDC

            The Catalans want to grift off the rest of Europe for their security. It’s the complete opposite of the federalized system the EU needs. It would be like the Upper East Side wanting to secede from New York City, but still expecting the NYPD to patrol the streets.

          • Mark_in_MN

            I don’t think that analogy holds. The NYPD wouldn’t be the equivalent of the NATO alliance. The duties and place of each is incredibly different.

          • ErikDC

            Perhaps that’s true. My larger points holds, however. Further balkanization is bad for Europe. Vladimir Putin supports it precisely because it’s bad for Europe.

          • Mark_in_MN

            I think more localized autonomy within the EU framework would actually be good for the EU.

          • ErikDC

            The EU needs a federal government, transforming current nation-states into simply states. People who want an independent Catalonia are antithetical to that goal.

          • Mark_in_MN

            What the EU needs is to be more democratic and less dominated by a few large nation-states.

          • ErikDC

            Catalonia is currently an autonomous region within Spain; a virtual Spanish state.

            Do you think after voting for independence, these same people would ever consent to becoming a state, rather than a nation-state, within the EU?

            Of course not.

          • Mark_in_MN

            If they are a “virtual state” than let them be an actual one, with representation for themselves in the EU and a place at the international table.

            The EU is a collection of nation-states, not a federal system or the United States of Europe. If Europe wants that, then they should negotiate that openly as a new framework replacing the EU and removing the national sovereignty of each EU member, rather than drift in that direction. It is far from clear that this is what Europe (even pro-EU Europe) wants.

            It’s not a federal Europe that is needed, it is a more democratic Europe that’s not dominated by a few large nations pulling strings behind the scenes.

          • ErikDC

            If you’re standing with Vladimir Putin — and you are, Mark — you’re not standing on the side that is best for western civilization.

            That’s the bottom line.

          • Mark_in_MN

            I’m not standing with Vladimir Putin. I’m standing for self-determination, for more local autonomy, for having more decisions for the administration of daily life happening closer to people whose lives are involved, for an EU That is more democratic and has more evenly shared power, for an EU less dominated by whoever happens to have the electoral majority (or leads a parliamentary coalition) in just a couple of states. I’m approaching this from principle. One shouldn’t stop standing for principle simply because an enemy (and Putin is most definitely and unarguably an enemy) happens to be acting a certain way.

          • ErikDC

            That’s what Putin says, too. Russia will back any and every separatist movement. Putin wants everyone else to get smaller, while Russia expands. Which prompted Rachel Maddow last week to propose starting a mock separatist movement here in the US to see if they could get the Russians to fund it. You can watch that segment here:

            http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/expansionist-russia-promotes-division-everywhere-else-1056627268001

          • Mark_in_MN

            So let’s just abandon every principle without any compunction about it in order to fight Putin? Is that it? Sorry, I can’t go there. We do need to fight Putin, but we need to stick to good principles as we do, or we will have no reason to fight in the first place.

          • ErikDC

            You didn’t watch that segment. You should.

          • Mark_in_MN

            Russian information warfare and meddling is a problem. I didn’t say otherwise. It needs to be addressed. He’s trying to use it to weaken others around the world. That does not, however, mean we should abandon our own good principles in the process. Independence movements are potentially destabilizing only because so many in the West are so tenacious in holding on to boarders and the status quo, seemingly for their own sake. The West is enabling this to be disruptive. It does’t need to be that disruptive or that much of a distraction. Putin is using us against ourselves, and all too often we willingly go along with it. Fighting any possibility of independence like in Catalonia this because of Putin is helping him. Putin is seeking the raw exercise of power for its own sake and for his own sake. Responding by making this a raw power fight over who (or which coalition in the world) will exercise such raw power for its own sake is not helpful. It, again, plays into Putin’s hands and makes our fight hollow and empty, because we are no longer fighting for anything except raw power.

          • Daveed_WOW

            Sounds like someone I know.

    • Friday

      Cause it was never actually that popular an idea and wealthy Russian interests want to hobble Western Europe?

      • Mark_in_MN

        But if it’s really not that popular an idea, then Spain shouldn’t have been afraid of having a fair and open referendum, rather than clamp down on it with all sorts of illegitimate and heavy handed use of power.

        Independence of Catalonia, the Basque Country, and even a few other regions of Europe would only hobble Western Europe if Western Europe lets it. If it made easy and fairly fluid provision for including such newly independent states in its order, then it need not be a significant disruption. If this is would hobble Europe, Russia may be taking advantage of it, but it would be a result of Europe’s own making.

        • Friday

          Spain obviously screwed the pooch in the response but it’s also obviously someone trying to divide Europe as much as they can, legal or not. Look what happened here in the US. Simple fact is, secession just couldn’t poll a majority, neer mind 90 percent.

          • Mark_in_MN

            That might be true. But had Spain actually allowed the referendum to go ahead, rather than using raw power to try to suppress it, we might actually know if it could poll a majority or not. Whether Catalonian independence is a good thing or not, the Spanish actions here are despicable and cannot be supported.

          • Friday

            Well, it was despicable but it’s also no reason to believe 50 percent of Catalonia swung past polling errors to be for secession, either. It’s also useless for secessionists to claim that proved something.

          • Mark_in_MN

            It is useless to claim they proved something. They did not. I agree with that particular point.

    • pepón

      I don’t understand why you mix Catalans with Catalan nationalists. Catalan nationalists are between 35 and 50%. What do we do about the other 50%?

      As a gay man (I guess) you should be very conscious about the majority/biggest minority depriving smaller minorities of their rights through “voting”.

      • Mark_in_MN

        I’m not mixing Catalans with Catalan nationalists, I’m saying that Catalans as a whole should be allowed to determine their region’s direction. What took place didn’t actually allow for that because Spain (like many other countries) rules out any possibility the various regions making such a decision.

        The issue up in this largely scuttled vote wasn’t depriving people of rights. Rather the central state deprived the region of Catalonia any right of self-determination. So, yes, I’m conscience of people being deprived of their rights.

        But if only 35% or up to half of the people in Catalonia support independence, then pursuing independence wouldn’t happen. The current vote, to the extent that it happened, was not fair and open and cannot be given legitimacy.

        • pepón

          There are so many things wrong with your text, I’ll just put some points:
          – “Regions” don’t have rights, people have.
          – This was not going to be a fair referendum in any way, and form, as wasn’t the last one, even without the central government intervening.
          – Be very careful with this “right of self determination”. Where does it end?
          – What about the “right” to territorial integrity for states, it has avoided quite a few wars since WWII.

          I think people have forgotten how fragile our world and system is, and how easy wars develop.

          • Mark_in_MN

            Speaking of rights for regions is a shorthand to speak of the people of a region. I do things that communities have rights, even if you want to strictly limit speaking of rights only to people, communities are made up of people. And people together certainly have rights of self-determination and consent of being governed by a particular form. Government should arise from the people of a community, not be an imposition on them.

            If the referendum was open to all voters who live in the region, not subject to interference such as seizing ballots and attempting to occupy polling places by police or other forces, conducted with honesty about results and under regular rules, and with free choice, that would be a fair vote. If some choose not to participate, that’s on them, not the fairness of the voting process.

            I think we weight the idea of territorial integrity far too highly. It may have a little merit in terms of territorial claims between nations, but the rights of people to determine their own government should be far, far more important, to the point that territorial integrety should be a whisper. At the very least, it should be kept in balance. From the late 20th century an inflexible and unbalanced approach that gives outsized importance to territorial integrety keeps communities bound to nations where they are distinct, but often territorially based, minorities. War need not be the result of preferencing self-determination over territorial integrity. It is a choice that nation-states make because have chosen to be greedy about power and territory rather than allow for self-determination to occur through regualrized, legal, and peaceful means and preference.

          • pepón

            I guess I’m much more pessimistic than you. I don’t believe in “all countries will live together in peace”. I guess you don’t see it like that, because you live in a gigantic country that has not had a war in it’s territory since the Secession War. Europe has never had peace for a long time. The last wars were Yugoslavia, and Ucraine. Do you imagine what will happen if regions and countries stop following the rules? We’ll be back to the 19th and 20th century.

            I put “not subject to interference” long before the action of the central government. Catalonia has been suffering 30 years of nation building, years of propaganda, and constant social pressure to conform to nationalism, beginning in the schools. This is not a spontaneous movement, this movement has been groomed for years. How can you make a referendum, if the Catalan government itself has been manipulating the frame for 30 years?

            On the other hand, if you think the independence of Catalonia will end the problem, you have no idea. They want the independence of the Paisos Catalans, the Great Catalonia, not just Catalonia, and they will destabilize the rest of Spain (as they are doing already in Majorca and Valencia), and France until they have reached their goal.

          • Mark_in_MN

            I’m not talking about a stoppage to following rules, but that different rules should apply, rules that create a peaceful, orderly, lawful process by which people can regionally and democratically exercise self-determination.

            Expression of a possition, even over a long period of time, even by elected leadership of a community, isn’t interference. Prohibiting alternative views from being expressed in any public way would be interference. Social pressure isn’t interference, or are you willing to also say that it is improper and wrong to not do business with someone because they express anti-gay views or are a white supremicist. You seem to want some kind of cultural blank slate. That is not the basis for a fair and open election, which is about the procedure of an election/vote and protecting the broad franchise of the population.

            I neither support nor oppose independence for Catalonia. My issue here is entirely about the possibility of self-determination through peaceful and democratic means and opposition to blanket foreclosure of the possibility (and this is not only or primarily about Spain, although the Spanish government is one of the prime examples of this). You and others seem to be having a great deal of difficulty separating issues, even if they are related, all too readily collapsing it all into concern only for a particular out outcome as the only thing that could possibly matter.

          • pepón

            Look, if 66% (2/3) or 70% of the population were in favor of the independence in surveys, I’d understand it. Pro-indepence people would have a large majority, and then you could talk about everything. But that is not what is happening here. Here we are talking about 50% (maximum! Only about 37% of the people voted in favor this time; more or less the same number of people that voted in the last “referendum” in Catalonia, where the central government did not intervene) imposing to the other 50% their points of view. And not just about anything, we are talking about their livelihoods. Do you know what can happen if Catalonia becomes independent? This is no game, or a theoretical discussion. Catalan companies have already lost 2 billion euros in the last two days in the stock exchange. Just the two Catalan banks have lost 1.6 billion. And nothing has really happened yet.

            What do you think means nation building and propaganda? Do you think teaching children in schools that Spanish people are evil is “expression of a position”? That bullying a family that wants their school to comply with a sentence of the Constitutional Court that increases the number of class hours in Spanish to whole 4 hours per week (they have 4 hours of English per week, but only 2 of Spanish, the language of the majority) to the point where the child has to change schools isn’t interference? The school itself published the name of the family that had protested, and they knew the consequences. Just some small examples. Constantly repeating slogans like “Spain is robbing us”, “Spain is inferior”, “We are better than them”, “They don’t love us/they hate us”, “all problems will be solved with the independence” in any and all media at their disposal is just an opinion? And this for the last 30 years. I don’t think that is any way to have a neutral referendum. But what do I know.

          • Mark_in_MN

            Once again you are not distinguishing the issues and arguing against a position I have not taken, clearly so that you can argue a different issue you want to argue. You’re continuing to impart positions and ideas to me I have not expressed and do not hold (perhaps from pro-independent arguments?). Independence for Catalonia may well be a very bad idea with many negative consequences. You clearly have very strong opinions on that, and it seems you are not able to separate the question of whether it would be a good thing for Catalonia to become independent from the question of whether any vote on independence (or even contemplation of independence) should be allowed in any case, in Spain or elsewhere. Maybe the threshold for independence needs to be more than the barest of majorities. It probably would be a good idea to put the threshold at 60 to 67%.

            I don’t believe anything in the current circumstances gives justification for Catalonian independence at this time, if it would ever be a good idea. But Spanish government resistance to even the idea of a possibility in just about any circumstance, no, not resistance but outright rejection that it could ever be possible, is a real problem and, in my opinion, immoral. As is, for example, the out-of-hand rejection by Turkey, Iraq, and the United States (at least) of any possibility of a Kurdish state being created, even before any particulars could even be discussed so that the idea can be evaluated in terms of its effects (as you are doing with respect to Catalonian independence).

          • pepón

            Independence can be reached legally in Spain, in the US,
            and in every democratic country. It’s just very difficult, as
            it should be.

            The Spanish government has their ideas, and they defend them. As long as they are this side of the law, they have as much right to defend their opinions as the nationalists have. And if they don’t want to discuss a topic, and say they will never ever even consider possibility of the idea, then they have a right to. As long as it is inside the law, that is how a democracy works. Nationalists just have to wait until the next party comes along to the central government (PSOE or Podemos) and they will possibly even get their independence. They just have to get enough votes, like everyone else. Why should voters of nationalist parties have more weight than voters of non-nationalist parties? I possibly just don’t understand what you want to tell me.

            (And please, let’s keep morality out of the discussion. As a gay man, we have a history of that.)

          • Mark_in_MN

            “Why should voters of nationalist parties have more weight than voters of non-nationalist parties?” I have no idea where you’re getting that from. It’s not from anything I’ve written. No wonder you don’t understand what I’ve been saying. You’re not really reading carefully. Everyone in a region for which independence is proposed should have a vote of equal weight. The decision should be made by the whole electorate of such a region.

            What I’m saying is that the decision should be in the hands of the people of a given region. What I’m saying is that national governments should not be enforcing a policy that there is not and cannot be a right of self-determination for the peoples of one of their regions, be it Spain with the Basque region or Catalonia, Turkey with the Kurdish region, China with Tibet, etc. Rather they should allow votes on the matter as the United Kingdom and Canada did with Scotland and Quebec.

          • Mark_in_MN

            And, BTW, this isn’t abstract, but actually playing out, as it has before.

  • Rebecca Gardner

    Cutting a deal to throw Trump under the bus?

    https://twitter.com/RCdeWinter/status/914640762825875457

    • Friday

      Immunity deals ought to involve this Fundie not walking into the PrPresidency unvetted.

      • Lizard

        Doesn’t a deal imply guilt anyway? Could Pence be president after he cuts a deal?

        • Friday

          It’s fucking Republicans, there’s no one in the line of succession that anyone wants.

          • DaddyRay

            Which is why we need to take control of the House, then impeach

          • Friday

            That’s four years on the outside. No way Drumph last that long. Getting the *House* back will take the *next* four years, that’s why we couldn’t afford to lose this Presidential in the first place.

          • DaddyRay

            How about Trump now, if Pence inn’t taken out by Mueller and becomes Prez we take control of the house in 2018 midterms and then impeach Pence

          • Friday

            2018 not mathematically possible, never was, we just can pick up more than anyone would have thought if we do real well.

          • DaddyRay

            If Trump goes down the Dems will have a huge advantage in 2018 especially if Muller takes any House members out as collateral damage

          • Friday

            But if you look at whose seats are contested in *this* midterm it just can’t flip entirely that fast, even if we hold all our seats and we beat the Repugs in many of what they could plausibly lose. Again, this is why we couldn’t afford to lose this Presidential.

          • Lizard

            Which is why though I’m keeping up with the investigation, I’m not so sure it will matter in the end. If Donny is found to be complicit…so what? Will Congress have the spine to impeach him? Even if they do, the entire line of succession is Republicans and they can’t all have been involved with the collusion.

            I mean, we might get a Republican who won’t get in a dick-swinging contest with Kim Jung Un. But we’ll still get a Republican.

          • Friday

            ON that, I just think the sooner we get rid of the humiliating distraction, probably the better. We’re still fucked but they won’t have Trump to tell us to blame for more kamikaze damage.

          • Lizard

            True, but that doesn’t mean the damage won’t still be happening.

            The best thing that can be said about Trump is that because he has no idea what the fuck he’s doing, he’s been completely useless in enacting his (completely evil) agenda. Also, his approval ratings are in the toilet so a Dem is more likely to be elected in 2020. Pence, for example, knows exactly how to get his agenda through and does have reelection potential.

            I’m not by any means defending the shitgibbon in the White House. I’m just saying it might be choosing between death by dagger or poison.

          • Friday

            The Trumpence administration has been gutting and reversing much of what this nation needs to survive while he’s been trying and failing to pull worse atrocities.

          • Lizard

            I’m not denying that. I’m just afraid that with a more competent and no less evil Republican in the office, they won’t be failing anymore to pull off those worse atrocities.

          • Friday

            There’s just the little detail that Pence needed a job in the first place cause even highly-bigoted Indiana found him to be a *weenie.* As much as he’s kind of the guy the Dominionists really want in office, he just doesn’t have the talent for distracting the rubes. And they *aren’t* actually a majority. Remember even the corporate media want their slice first.

          • Friday

            More like a choice of how much poison we’re expected to drink before we focus on what’s poison on a dagger.

          • Friday

            It does matter that the truth comes out, and even if the Constitution never prepared us for this, I don’t care if Ben Carson ends up the only one unindicted, wefreaking do that before trying to hash out the ‘never agains.’

          • Adam Schmidt

            I don’t *like* any of them. But if we get Trump, Pence and Ryan out of the way then Hatch is at least tolerable. At least I don’t think he’d deliberately sell out the country and he does work across the aisle on occasion (like CHIP).

      • sfbob

        “Immunity” should also include immediately resigning as VP. After all if there’s nothing you’re worried about being prosecuted for then why would you need immunity?

        • Friday

          One should hope.

    • kelven

      Trying to keep his own fat out of the fire. I’d say there is a very good chance that he’s still going down with a big chunk of the top tier. However far down the line they have to go, it will be an considered an interim administration. Because when all is revealed, there is a very good chance the election will be contested and then things will certainly interesting.

      • boatboy_srq

        It suddenly strikes me that what we’re seeing in 2017 is the Russian Civil War (1917-1922) in reverse. Ordinary Russians resented foreign involovement in that conflict and rallied to the “native, homegrown” Bolsheviks. Among the nations that were directly involved were the UK and US.

        Now, we’re seeing clear signs of Russian interference in the UK Brexit vote and the US election – in the latter case, multipronged and widespread. There’s a bit of “chickens coming home to roost” here. And coming nearly on the centennial of the October Revolution, that’s just a wee bit too coincidental.

        • Paul

          Putin definitely played the long con.

      • Friday

        The only problem is our Constitution doesn’t *actually* have provisions for ‘contesting an election’ all down the line like that. An entire corrupt *party* just isn’t supposed to get this much power in the first place.

  • greenmanTN

    Completely OT, but I spent 3 weeks in Spain several years ago, and OMG I love the food! The people, a little less so… I was there for a wedding and whenever we were with our Spanish hosts everyone was REALLY nice, all but doing cartwheels. Without a Spanish person? “What do you want, annoying American? Here, have a moldy slice of Tortilla de Potate while I chat with my co-workers and studiously ignore you.” (Moldy food actually did happen twice.)

    One of my favorite late night snacks is Sopa de Ajo (garlic soup), which I can throw together in about 20 minutes. YUM!

    • another_steve

      Ohmigod a man who can cook!

      Would you like to marry me?

    • Lizard

      Garlic soup…

      *drools*

      Do you have a recipe?

      • greenmanTN

        It’s something I just throw together, but here are the basics.

        Crush 3 or 4 garlic cloves. Do NOT chop them because you need to fish them out of the pan.

        Heat up extra virgin olive oil in a pan and cook the garlic until browned, then remove garlic from the pan and set aside.

        Put about a tsp of paprika in the oil and stir.

        Add a few strands of saffron if you have it, a bit of turmeric if you don’t. (Or neither, it’s good without it.)

        Add 2-3 cups beef broth (I use Knorr boullion cubes.) and return cooked garlic to the pot.

        Now, in the oven or toaster oven make a piece of garlic bread for each serving, with a little cayenne and cumin on it as well.

        Poach an egg in the microwave. (1/2 cup water in a smallish bowl, but in the egg and cook for about1 minute.

        Put soup in a bowl, float bread on top, then the poached egg on that. Eat.

        (I sometimes put minced onion and/or chopped spinach in, but that’s not traditional.)

        • Lizard

          That sounds absolutely delicious! I’ll give it a try next time I’m in the kitchen. 🙂

          Garlic and onions are my favorite flavorings, particularly with various proteins. Whenever I make scrambled eggs, I put chopped garlic in the butter, let it cook down, fish the cloves out, and add the eggs.

          • another_steve

            You probably already know this… but garlic is said to have health benefits.

            There are garlic supplements on the market – tablets – that I understand contain the essential ingredient but without the unfortunate side effect re the smell of underarm perspiration.

    • easygoingmister

      Um, I need this recipe. Have others to trade.

  • Friday

    I don’t care whether or not Catalan is independent, but there’s no way this poll ‘result’ isn’t bogus, especially since it was *illegal and irrelevant* to anyone actually wanting to take the other side. (Not to mention actually voting was forcibly-suppressed.)

  • MikeBx2

    This is an administration that would gleefully rip healthcare away from millions, including those with pre-existing conditions like breast cancer. But we are supposed to be touched that they are honoring an awareness month by lighting our White House in pink. Color me not impressed…
    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/914694765286801408

    • Lizard

      The best I can say about that is that it’s not a completely horrible thing to do. Which is pretty fucking sad.

      • Adam King

        It’s hypocritical as fuck. In my book that’s horrible, exploiting the sick and dying when they have absolutely no intention of doing anything to help.

      • -M-

        True on both counts. Though I can’t help thinking the Obama White House would’ve chosen a more elegant looking shade of pink.

    • greenmanTN

      It’s to distract from Trump’s own tit caught in the wringer.

      • Lizard

        Please don’t make us think about Trump’s tits.

    • Lazycrockett

      Im sure the women of the Drumpf family has everything scrapped out before the implants are put in.

    • DaddyRay

      The lights used the blood of breast cancer patients who have lost medical coverage

    • another_steve

      “Mr. President, The Reverend Franklin Graham just called. He wanted to remind you that women’s breasts are the tools of Satan and that pink is the color of the homos.

      Shall I call him back?”

    • Lazycrockett

      That is bout the most evil color of pink Ive ever seen.

      • Adam King

        Vampire Fantasy Pink.

    • ByronK

      It looks like the White House has bled out of its wherever.

  • another_steve

    Why are so many of them in that photo covering up their genital areas?

    An ominous sign, one would think.

  • Scout

    Sounds like Trump is some kind of goldmine for Twitter . . . along with all the Russian bots and advertising being a goldmine for social media in general.
    https://twitter.com/outstandy/status/914639977102938113

    • Lizard

      Trump has literally called their platform an “official means of communication.” Of course they love him.

      • DaddyRay

        Mueller has no problems with Trump’s calling it “official”

  • MikeBx2

    This is UK’s 5th largest airline and biggest airline failure. Lots of stranded passengers…
    https://twitter.com/jonostrower/status/914688929663639552

    • Hue-Man

      There’s speculation that this might be a sign of the end of low-cost airlines…

      Ryanair, the low-cost Irish airline struggling to deal with staff shortages that prompted the cancellation this month of 2,100 flights, said on Wednesday that it would cut 18,000 more.

      The staffing issues, largely attributed to a failure to find replacements for vacationing pilots, also led the company to drop its bid to buy the troubled Italian flag carrier Alitalia, Ryanair said.

      https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/27/business/ryanair-flights-canceled.html

      • MikeBx2

        I didn’t realize they were considering buying Alitalia. Wow.

      • Ben in Oakland

        Ryan air is cheap and crappy. If you could put up with the crappy, then the cheap makes it almost worthwhile. My first experience with them was bad enough that I would only consider flying them if I had a carry-on bag and wasn’t going to fly more than three hours. The problem is, they don’t have to be that way. They just are. I think it has a great deal to do with the mindset of “we must be cheaper than anyone else.”

    • another_steve

      WTF?

      They do this without even allowing people who’ve already purchased tickets to use them?

      • MikeBx2

        Exactly. What’s worse than arriving at the airport to find your flight cancelled? Arriving to find your airline is no longer operating.

        • boatboy_srq

          Even worse if you arrive at the airport for your flight home and the airline is kaput. That’s happened a few times.

        • fkevin

          Arriving to find your airline is no longer operating, you’re on the flight crew and on the other side of the country. Luckily jump seat privileges were honored and other airlines provided passage. And losing a month+ pay.

      • boatboy_srq

        Figure $2000/hour to operate the aircraft – and that’s fuel, provision, clean, taxi to the jetway, board, fly, land, clean and reprovision again – versus $200-500 per seat which the airline has already received and entered into its books. If the airline doesn’t have the funds to continue operating the aircraft then they can’t take the passengers no matter what their tickets say.

        I’d be more interested in learning whether they’re going to refund any of those seats, or let the would-be passengers whistle for their refunds in bankruptcy court.

    • Ben in Oakland

      Air Berlin just went out, after telling us a few weeks ago that flights would continue on until next year. My friend had purchased a to ,et, and now they’ve screwed her out of $800 and she has to buy s new ticket for twice as much,

  • Cuberly

    Here we go, they’re trickling out the damage between disaster mitigation efforts.

    And the GOP is MIA.

    https://twitter.com/LPDah/status/914708870391615488

    • DaddyRay

      To be fair – Facebook was too busy selling user information to 3rd parties to notice

      • Cuberly

        ….well, to be fair, they’re so obsessed with self-worship they’re self medicating with a shit ton of lawyers & money so they don’t have to admit they didn’t see this coming. Even though the evidence of FB being used for nefarious purposes for years has been smack in their faces.

        Do we have a count of how many lgbt youth have been bullied into suicide via FB?

        Zuck calls it, “connecting people”.

  • Blake J Butler
  • worstcultever
  • TimCA

    I lived in Spain for some years during college and have returned frequently to visit my numerous friends and associates scattered throughout the country, including many in and around Barcelona and environs. I’ve made my feelings abundantly well known on the previous thread so I won’t engage in further political discussion about it tonight as I’m literally sick to my stomach. But after communicating with many people today and into the early morning hours there I will say that if Puigdemont and his fellow right wing PDeCat nationalist zealots thinks they will be carrying Catalonia off on the basis of today’s “vote” they are very mistaken indeed. The Catalan population remains deeply divided by what the intentions of this nationalist movement portends for Catalonia’s future as a pluralistic, open and multicultural society. What we saw today will pale in comparison for what’s in the offing if the secessionists try to force this issue by a unilateral declaration of independence under these circumstances. I hope reason will ultimately prevail. Goodnight.

    • another_steve

      Important insights. Thanks, Tim. I don’t think nationalism, in general, is a good thing for today’s world.

      That may be naive on my part, but that’s what my gut tells me.

      • Vira

        Do you have any insights on independence? Good or bad?

        • another_steve

          “Independence” is a pretty broad term. If you’re asking whether I think nations should be free from subjugation by other nations, of course I do.

          If you’re asking whether I think nations should embrace jingoism and have dominance as their goal, I think that’s a bad thing.

          One planet. One world. One people.

    • Ben in Oakland

      Funny, I have some familiarity with Spain, and I was thinking the same thing. No one wins out of this. Nof Spain. Not Catalunya.

    • Mark_in_MN

      Using this vote, provided that the results they are claiming are accurate, is indeed a huge problem. The events around the referendum make it impossible to claim legitimacy for any result. That was certainly the goal of the central Spanish government.

      • pepón

        No, the goal was to stop it. It was a stupid way to go about it, but that is Rajoy for you.

        On the other hand, the goal of the Catalan Government was to get photos of the violence, to justify their unilateral declaration of independence in a couple of day.

        You think this was bad? Wait until the central government has to cancel Catalan self government to avoid secession.

    • Vira

      That Catalan population is almost certainly less divided today than they were on Saturday.

      Disgraceful, barbaric, anti-democratic, criminal acts by Rajoy/PP and the thuggish GC mercernaries from the lesser areas of Spain.

      After yesterday, the Guardia Civil = ISIS. And the whole fucking world saw.

      • TimCA

        “Guardia Civil = ISIS” “from the lesser areas of Spain”
        I think the hysterics and hyperbole are the last thing things needed currently in Spain at this awful moment. It’s not helpful. Rajoy’s actions have been disgraceful too.

      • pepón

        “lesser areas of Spain” = you racism is showing.

  • Cuberly

    Serious question, has anyone heard Bernie rant and rave about CHIP expiring? It’d be a perfect moment for him to step in and raise a stink.

    Anyone?

    • Treant

      That’s the sound…of silence…

      • Cuberly

        Going by his, (sigh) twitter feed he’s all over the map as usual.

        I guess he’s a big picture guy, as he ignores whether or not kids will be able to stay in school after getting their vaccinations.

        • Treant

          Kids won’t vote for him in 2020.

          • Adam King

            Neither will anyone else. The useless old buzzard needs to retire.

          • Cuberly

            It’s almost as if he hasn’t been particularly effective.

          • Lazycrockett

            Well if we all had voted for him after he lost the primary he would have won the general election.

        • Lazycrockett

          He will strike his hand on the rock and all shall be insured!

      • Robincho

        Hello, darkness, my old friend…

    • Friday

      Umm, actually, I think he was on pubic radio doing that today.

      • Cuberly

        Then why are his social media accounts so neglected? One media appearance is all it takes?

        Sorry, I’m not seeing any form of initiative from him outside of griping.

        • Friday

          I’m not exactly in the Berniebot camp, you know. He was actually on the radio. I have a radio. I don’t have Twitter. (I’m not saying it was an *impressive* perfromance but it was there. )

          • Cuberly

            “It was there.”

            And as effective as anything Bernie puts his energy into.

            Not trying to be a dick but there’s an element of the far left that is very much detached from the work involved.

            Bernie’s entire career has been this way. He’s never been a boots on the ground sorta guy.

          • Ninja0980

            Nope, it hasn’t.
            And they always think things will get so bad the progressive revolution will happen, even though it didn’t with Nixon, St. Ronnie, W etc.

          • Friday

            You asked a very specific question. I answered it honestly. We’re better than this.

          • Cuberly

            My beef is with the fact that Bernie doesn’t do the work to fight for what we have. There’s 9Mil kids that just lost their healthcare. Does he mobilize the berniebots to fight?

            Nope.

            I get that he mentioned it on NPR, looks like that’s all he’s done.

        • CottonBlimp

          It sounds like he’s focused on Puerto Rico right now.

  • GanymedeRenard

    Folks, folks, folks… Please don’t confuse the Spanish people with the current Spanish government. Same applies to the USA.

    The real Spanish PEOPLE are FAR from being as fascists as some reports portray them by showing the brutality sent off from the central government from Madrid to Barcelona – which actually happened.

    Remember this: Spain remains THE most LGBT-friendly country in Europe, and perhaps in the world, with or without Catalonia. Bear that in mind.

    • Vira

      Rajoy and the PP have tried to reverse the Marriage Equality statute.

      • GanymedeRenard

        And failed. The Supreme Court ruled that Marriage Equality was the law of the land. What’s your point?

  • Scout
    • Lazycrockett

      and before these select few guys got lucky enough through skill and determination and family sacrifice to achieve a dream of working for the NFL they were poor black kids being raised in a ghetto praying that they didn’t get shot on their way to school every day.
      STFU white girl.

  • geoffalnutt

    Putin will also fan the flames of civil war – no matter where they exist and to what degree. We need to watch this here. Divide and conquer! It’s so simple, but it always works. I’m not saying Putin caused Catalonia’s secession, but I’m sure he’s happy about it.

    • Paul

      Oh Putin saw an open wound and poured a shit ton of salt into it. Notice how Assange and the like are tweeting about it. And as mentioned up thread the leavers have moved their servers to Russia as well.

    • Daveed_WOW

      Russia getting involved in Spanish politics?! I

  • Lazycrockett
  • Lazycrockett
  • Lazycrockett
  • Publius

    No referendum occurred today.

  • Lazycrockett
  • Blake J Butler
  • Rebecca Gardner
  • Blake J Butler
  • gaycuckhubby

    If youre in Vegas please stay safe!

  • Rebecca Gardner

    Can I please have just one day without tears. OMG! That sounds like .223. WTF America! Can we talk about gun control now?

    https://twitter.com/joshdcaplan/status/914734060332769280

    • gaycuckhubby

      Oh my god! That is beyond horrible!

      • Rebecca Gardner

        I’m crying my eyes out. I wish I never watched that video.

        • gaycuckhubby

          I couldn’t watch all the way through.
          So many reports of other shooters in other hotels… so much confusion, usually second shooter reports arent accurate.
          Horrible

          • Rebecca Gardner

            Then don’t look at the videos attached on this thread. They only get much much much much much much much much worse.

            It sounded like full auto AR-15.

          • gaycuckhubby

            Thank u for the heads up.
            *Hugs*

          • gaycuckhubby

            They are playing it on cnn.
            Unreal… i cant even imagine how bad this will be

    • William

      What part of “A well regulated Militia” do repuglicans not understand???????

  • Rebecca Gardner

    Why? Why would someone do this? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?
    And people wonder why I’m a bit agoraphobic.

    • gaycuckhubby

      Probably religious fanaticism. So much depends on how we respond to this.
      I am legitimately terrified of what Trump’s response will be

      • Rebecca Gardner

        All the RWNJs are already tweeting it was a Muslim terrorist. Bullshit! No news about the shooter is out yet.

        • gaycuckhubby

          They have no clue.
          Seems like ISIS/Paris/Manchester tactics, but that can easily be copied. Does no good to spread false info

  • Rebecca Gardner
    • gaycuckhubby

      So far the police are saying 2 dead, 24 wounded.
      Those numbers will certainly change

      • Rebecca Gardner

        An eyewitness is being interviewed right now. She said she saw hundreds of people laying on the ground. HUNDREDS!

        • gaycuckhubby

          Fuck fuck fuck

        • Many may just have been taking cover.

  • gaycuckhubby
  • Rebecca Gardner
    • We’ll see. Gunshots do echo, esp. with large buildings nearby.

      • danolgb

        It’s hard to see from the videos, but the towers are actually not as close as it seems in the videos. Hopefully, the distance took some power out of many of the rounds.

        • I lived in Vegas for a couple years, yeah… the ‘blocks’ there are huge.

          • danolgb

            Plus the towers of Mandalay are set back from the street. They describe it as across the street from Mandalay, but it’s actually directly across from the Luxor.
            http://bit.ly/2fCTrBB

  • gaycuckhubby
    • I’ve a feeling the death toll will be significantly higher than the two currently being reported.

      • Rebecca Gardner

        Yeah. :’-(

  • gaycuckhubby

    I find it bizarre with the news channels are bleeping out the curse words in this videos but allowing the gunshots to be seen and heard.

    • Sadly, it’s a stupid-ass FCC thing.

      • Tulle Christensen

        That is broadcast only, there are no word restrictions for cable only channels. It is the cable channel choosing to bleep

    • Rebecca Gardner

      Murder, Death, and Violence are A-OK!
      Love, Sex, Human Emotions are Verboten!

      We live in a fucked-up world.

  • gaycuckhubby

    Heading to bed. I have to be at work in 4 hrs. I dread seeing the details when I wake up…
    Good night and stay safe.
    Hugs

  • Secure

    It sounded very bad in the video’s. I hope casualites are not high.

  • BeaverTales

    Mayhem in Calgary, Marseilles and now Vegas. Is this kind of thing going to become a typical weekend? Is this an ISIS thing? Is it going to be the new normal?

  • Secure
  • LV Sheriff reporting likely more than 20 dead and 100+ injured.

    • Watching this now on MSNBC

  • Moebym of the Returners

    Just seen on Twitter…fake Twitter accounts have been created to spread false info about the shooting.

    What a world…

    https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/914757236492263424

    • Sick motherfuckers who I hope burn forever in Hell.

      • I’ve seen a whole bunch of them go by. Bots in particular are posting extremely similar “my (loved one) is missing, please RT!” — only they use fake photos and almost identical language.

  • Secure

    Sheriff just said probably 20+dead, 100+injured.

    • Moebym of the Returners

      Shooter’s reported to be a local resident, and dead. Police have said the reports of other shooters are false, and they’re looking for his female companion.

      • JCF

        Inshallah, my “please don’t be Muslim” prayers may come true. I know, the smallest of comforts. But just your Bog Standard ‘Merkan Gun Nut won’t (at least) accelerate the drive to fascism. May the dead rest in peace, may the wounded (and grieving) recover, and may justice be done…

  • G’nite all. Take care. Hold your loved ones close.

  • Bison Burgher

    We live in Catalunya, out in the sticks where the independentista movement is strongest, and I promise you that actual independence will not happen. Violence, yes; independence, no. There will be tanks on the Gran Via before Barcelona is the capital of anything other than drunk guiris and trust-fund millennials.

    Rajoy cannot under any circumstances allow Catalan secession, or next out the door will be the Basque Country, Galicia, and probably the Balearics and the Canarias. That would leave Madrid as the sole economic center of Spain. The people with money — the ones really in charge of what happens here — are simply not going to put up with any of that.

    • It is also difficult to believe that ANY election that results in a 90+% plebiscite was actually legit.

      That’s normally an indication of either (1) only those who wanted to vote a particular way showed up or (2) the results were f’d with.

      Yeah… can’t sleep. The wife and I lived in Vegas for a few years a couple decades ago.

      • Tulle Christensen

        Since Spain said it was an illegal vote if you supported Spain you were not likely to vote

        • That’s why I worded my comment both ways.

      • JCF

        {{{Becca & wife}}}

      • pepón

        {{{hugs}}}
        there is not much else to say

      • Bison Burgher

        You’re correct on both counts.

        The “no” voters stayed home because they believed the referendum to be illegitimate and because the violence was all too predictable. We were told a month ago to just stay home on Sunday because there would certainly be violence, it was just a question of where it would happen.

        Also, there wasn’t any kind of organized “no” campaign before the referendum.

        The balloting was pure bullshit because the “sí” campaign handed out ballots at rallies and encouraged their supporters to print out ballots at home. With no regulation or control over the voting process, there’s obviously no way to know who voted, or how many times.

    • barrixines

      There will be tanks on the Gran Via before Barcelona is the capital of
      anything other than drunk guiris and trust-fund millennials.

      Great – I am a middle aged working class bloke born and bred in London who moved to Barcelona ten years ago without a pot to piss in. According to the Brexshitters I was part of a metropolitan elite – now I live in BCN and I’m a trust fund millenial. You do know working class people live in cities don’t you?

      • Bison Burgher

        That’s a complete misreading of my comment.

  • https://twitter.com/kendisgibson/status/914788294751391744

    This is an ABC News reporter.

    I’ve noticed the address reported is in Mesquite NV, which is a ways NE from Vegas.

    Happens to be not very far from Bunkerville NV…which is where the Bundys hail from.

    https://twitter.com/SavannahGuthrie/status/914792803590385665

    • JohnJay

      Oh God. He’s supposedly an extreme Alt-Left, anti-Trumpster. I can’t imagine what this will bring.

      • You really need to fucking source that claim or else I’m going to assume you are a troll.

        • JohnJay
          • It’s not even the same damned name. So yeah.

          • Welcome to my block-list, asshole. I have friends in Vegas.

          • Everipedia is notorious for being a cheap imitation of Wikipedia (requires $, loose editing policies, most of it ripped off from Wikipedia articles), so yeah it’s not a great source. However, broken clock twice a day, perhaps, but we’ll find out the truth soon enough.

          • JohnJay

            Yeah, I was uncertain. However, the woman the person in that article is married to, MaryLou Danley, is the person of interest caught by the police this morning. So there’s that.

          • Yeah, I don’t doubt that your heart is in the right place but that’s a big mix-up (husband of potential accomplice vs the guy who’s been identified as the prime suspect)! 😀

          • I doubt the ‘heart’ of anyone who misrepresents information.

            If this Paddock guy turned out to be a leftist, I’d be the first to say, “Oh FUCK how can he not understand he’s not helping?!”

            But I don’t remember JohnJay at all and his first comment was inflammatory and almost stereotypically concern-trolly, so I figure he’s a fake.

            So far, not seeing any reason to assume otherwise.

          • JohnJay

            You asked for a source, and I gave it to you. Then you blocked me as a bot.

          • Incidentally, may I ask why you have your comment history hidden? It seems like a poor policy to have, especially with all the fake posts that proliferate after shootings like this (hence BeccaM becoming suspicious of you).

          • Thanks, RK.

          • JohnJay

            I didn’t know it was private. Discus is the only thing I have (no twits, fbs etc) and I didn’t realize. It should be unblocked now, but I can’t check for sure, as I’m the owner. (OK, I did log out and could still see the content, so maybe it is. I see BeccaM’s posts are private, too, or it that just because she blocked me?) Anyway, somehow the woman in that article is involved, as she has been caught as a person of interest.

      • JCF

        Rumor control, please!

        • JCF

          …and who TF is “JohnJay” (private activity)? Anybody recognize him, or do we have a troll/bot here?

          • I do not recognize this person, no. Smells trollish at roughly the 90% certitude level.

      • barrixines

        I suppose that’s already one up from the Muslim every mouth breather on the internet has been telling he is for the last few hours.

    • blackstar

      1372 Babbling Brooke Ct.
      Mesquite Nevada

      • Yeah… ‘Stephen Paddock, known by local law enforcement as being ‘an issue.'” (MSNBC, just now)

  • What do you expect from the Spanish Popular Party: they’re fascists.

  • blackstar
    • I’ve noticed a shit-ton of fake acc’ts posting RT requests using stolen photos.

  • JCF

    Fuck. Over 50 dead in Vegas. 200+ injured.

    • JCF

      …but remember, it’s not the time to talk about gun control! /s

      {off to vomit}

      • But we have to ban Muslims from visiting…even though this mass-murdering guy was a 64yo white male U.S. citizen who lived in a town not far from the Bundys.

    • At 50+, this is now the single worst single-shooter mass-murder in U.S. history.

  • blackstar

    She tried to warn concert goers ? 🙁
    https://everipedia.org/wiki/marilou-danley-nevada/

    • I don’t link to ‘Everipedia’. They’re not reliable.

    • SoCalGal20

      This page was only created a couple of hours ago. Not reliable at all.

    • blackstar

      I just saw the link from twitter.

  • Jim in MN

    Being half Spanish I feel I can finally say this. Democracy is not .0005% of the country voting for 1 part to secede. It’s not, say, a small fraction of California, telling the U.S. to go take a hike. The Spanish constitution is modeled after the u.S. constitution. To secede Spain would be required to amend its constitution and the Supreme Court of Spain ruled that it was an unconstitutional referendum. Many people in Catalunya (where I’m currently living, btw) didn’t choose to go vote or put themselves into this position. The coming weeks will be telling, but it’s laighable for anyone to consider this a landslide or a mandate or consensus of any kind. The people who benefit from this are the wealthier people in Catalunya and it’s been played as a people’s movement of democracy and independence. Sound familiar?!

  • barrixines

    It’s beyond belief that its legal to have the kind of firepower that could kill and wound over two hundred and fifty people from the 32 storey of a building in such a short time that the area couldn’t be evacuated and the perpetrator apprehended/ brought down after more than a couple of shots. Happy to take my words back if this is no the case and the weapons used were illegal. But it is the time to talk about guns.

    • SoCalGal20

      Yeah, the only conversation that’s going to happen is the NRA throwing some money at Congress and people complaining if the festival organizers didn’t allow weapons.

      • barrixines

        Yeah that good guy on the ground armed with a pistol who could take someone out on the 32nd floor in the middle of a hail of automatic fire.

        • SoCalGal20

          Yep.

    • medaka

      from the BBC’s live feed

      What are the state’s gun laws?

      The state of Nevada has some of the most permissive gun laws in the US. It is legal to carry an assault rifle and there is no
      magazine capacity limit.

      There are no purchase permits and blue cards are no longer
      required.

      There is no waiting period mandated for firearm purchases
      and private gun sales are OK.

  • SoCalGal20

    Are bots promoting that Everipedia page? It’s near the top of the Google hits on the shooter’s name.

    • Seems like. We even have an infestation on JMG here.

    • blackstar

      The info on the page matches other sources I see on twitter. and yes lots of Bot activity with Russian origins were among the first tweets.

      • SoCalGal20

        Reliable sources or just random sources? There is a ton of bot activity going on.

    • JohnJay

      Just because I linked that info an hour ago does not make me a bot, and many here jumped to conclusion. I comment fairly regularly on JMG every day or so.

      • barrixines

        You can understand why people might think like that. A locked account and posting links to a site that contains a lot of unverified information – and in this case, totally incorrect information. I’ve stopped commenting most places these days because I am just fed up with the Russian/alt-right trolls who are just here to poison the well. People have had enough with this endless misinformation on the internet. Sucks if you get caught in the crossfire and you’re a genuine poster but this is how it is at the moment.

      • SoCalGal20

        I’m not referring to you as a bot. I’m saying that when I ran a Google search on the shooter’s name that Everipedia page came up pretty high in the search list. It has just been discussed in the last few days how one of Russia’s tactics is to use bots on twitter to boost certain hashtags or tweets and Google searches.

  • How I feel:
    https://twitter.com/jfreewright/status/914809466662637568

    Gonna try to sleep, not expecting success. Until later…

    • barrixines

      Good night Becca – I hope you do get a little sleep at least.

  • blackstar
    • barrixines

      Now, I have to tell you, words is an unbelievably complex subject. Nobody knew words could be so complicated.

      • medaka

        Motherfucker has the warmest condolences. He pulls them out of his golf trophies for Puerto Rico.

      • greenmanTN

        Or that islands are surrounded by water and lots of it!

    • greenmanTN

      What the actual fuck?! “Warmest” condolences and sympathies?

      I swear he is the most tone-deaf person I’ve ever heard. It’s like he’s pretending to be human (which incidentally is one hallmark of a sociopath).

      • barrixines

        Look he’s got four or five adjective flashcards that he can rotate. That one was the nearest one that fit. And look he added the superlative – he knows that is like speaking in bold or caps so it means more.

        • greenmanTN

          Isn’t there someone who could buy him the vocabulary flash card for 2nd grade? I think it’s time.

          • barrixines

            Perhaps Melanka could be persuaded to gift him a Dr Seuss book. Oh The Tweets You Can Tweet.

          • greenmanTN

            Perhaps to. replace the tattered unexpurgated copy of Hop On Pop he reads to her every night?

          • barrixines

            That was just unnecessary…

          • greenmanTN

            Yeah, I know. But I just couldn’t resist….

      • whollyfool

        He needs to pretend harder. 🙁

    • Porkie

      He knows the best words …but clearly “deepest” or even “most sincere” are not amongst their number …..

  • Rebecca Gardner
  • gaycuckhubby

    Worst mass shooting in U.S. history.

    • medaka

      Were you able to get some sleep?

      • gaycuckhubby

        Yes, thank you. A few hours.
        The body count isn’t unexpected after seeing the footage. But it’s horrendous

    • barrixines

      I don’t want to be glib about it but I wouldn’t bother alerting the record books to it. Another one will be along shortly.

      • SDG

        Yep

  • gaycuckhubby

    One of the scariest things about the shooting is that it appears to have been without much planning, a kind of spur-of-the-moment thing and not planned within a larger group.
    just how easy it was to cause this destruction. And from such a long distance away.

  • gaycuckhubby
  • gaycuckhubby

    It seems like multiple reports are saying that the woman she is talking about was the companion of the shooter
    https://twitter.com/RyanMcKinnell/status/914755192444272640

  • barrixines

    I see that Trump is delaying his trip to Puerto Rico because of this. How convenient.

    • gaycuckhubby

      TBH, that would be a hard call for any President. But Trump should have been to Puerto Rico already.

      • barrixines

        It shouldn’t be a hard call. This is the price both he and enough of the American people feel is acceptable to pay for the US’s insane attitude to gun ownership. Absolutely nothing will change because of this so why is it necessary to delay any trip? This is all OK.

  • SoCalGal20

    I think we could all use a little rescued baby goat video right now.

    https://twitter.com/dodo/status/914551994374692864

    • gaycuckhubby

      Thank you for that! I had a pet goat growing up. Giving me all the feels

      • barrixines

        I am nearly as jealous of that as I was of my friend at school who used to bring in his pet monkey.

    • djcoastermark

      In case there’s any doubt, I wholeheartedly approve of this video !

  • Rebecca Gardner
    • gaycuckhubby

      Yeah f*** that

  • barrixines

    Mother Pence has taken off Father Pence’s bed restraints and they are now praying.

    All better now.

  • Tomcat

    This is all part of the plan to break up as many countries as possible to make it easier for Russia to invade and conquer. Way to go idiots.

  • JWC

    the violence o yesterday di not help the no side

  • Jean-Marc in Canada

    Good.

    This was my tweet to the MFA yesterday…not that they would respond of course.

    https://twitter.com/sirlthr69/status/914567096377503744

  • pepón
  • justmeeeee

    ¡Ya fucked up real good, Mariano!