Betsy DeVos Rescinds Obama-Era Campus Rape Rules

The New York Times reports:

Reversing a key part of government policy on campus sexual assault, Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Friday issued new temporary rules that could give accused students greater protection against campus rape and sexual misconduct claims.

Ms. DeVos said that colleges may now use a higher standard of evidence before finding students responsible for sexual assault, a decision that can lead to discipline and even expulsion.

The change, the latest in a widespread rollback of Obama-era rules by the Trump administration, had been long sought by advocates of accused students, mostly men, who had complained that campus judicial processes had become heavily biased in favor of women accusers.

The rules, a sharp break from the Obama administration’s directives, will now permit colleges and universities to raise their evidence requirements to a “clear and convincing standard” of proof. The Obama administration had demanded colleges use a lower “preponderance of evidence” standard.

  • bkmn

    Just sickening

  • Lazycrockett

    Is there any reasoning behind this besides Obama did it?

    • Christopher

      Nope!

    • safari

      Here’s a Slate article that gives some reasoning behind why the change is possibly a good thing: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/09/betsy_devos_is_right_that_colleges_trample_on_the_rights_of_accused_sexual.html

      • DanimalChgo

        Few will probably take the time to read that, but it’s a very good point. Campus sexual assaults may indeed be a huge problem, but stripping all due process from the accused is not the way to solve it. Setting the rules up such that the accuser is always assumed to be truthful and the accused always assumed to be lying is not justice.

        • clay

          It doesn’t strip all due process. The Obama DoE letter required due process that some schools had been denying. The letter EXPLICITLY required EQUAL access to evidence, to counsel, to appeal, and to notifications. It does NOT assume the accuser is always truthful, but requires preponderance of the evidence, which means a GREATER than 50-50 split.

        • Potential rapist will now have the attitude, “Prove that I did it.”‘

      • greenmanTN

        Interesting article. Obviously the goal should be to prevent rape and punish the guilty, but the accused should be able to cross-examine the accuser and have representation during the process, as they would in a court of law. It’s a difficult balancing act, to protect women (or men) and punish the perpetrators but not set up kangaroo courts where accusation and guilt are assumed to be the same thing.

        I’m just spitballing here, but I’m also saying this as someone who was sexually assaulted, a situation that started out as consensual but then went way out of control, long after I demanded that it stop. Due to my age at the time and that I was still closeted I did nothing about it, went home and pretended everything was fine.

        • clay

          Uh, according to the Obama DoE letter, both sides have equal rights to counsel, neither has representation. Think of it as small claims court.

          You went home and pretended everything was fine– does that mean you left school? You shouldn’t have had to leave school, that wasn’t fair and it was a violation of your rights.

          • greenmanTN

            I’m basing my comments on the linked article which states that the accused often cannot cross examine the accuser and in some cases is not allowed representation during the process. In my case it had nothing to do with school- it didn’t happen at school and the other people involved were neither classmates, teachers, or administrators. At the time I thought I was handling it just fine, though in retrospect I wasn’t.

        • Phillip in L.A.

          Greenman, I am very sorry to hear that happened to you!

          • greenmanTN

            Thanks. It happened many years ago, when I was 16, so I rarely think about it anymore. It kinda fucked me up during my 20s (social anxiety, tracking people around me, etc) but I got past it.

    • Scott MB

      Nope, Obama made a rule now it must be abolished, because black man.

      This is sickening. At leadt it is up to the college whether to do it or not. Local universities around here are not raising the bar for the accused. My wish is that universites would grt out of it completely and turn it over to the police. I mean its rape a criminal offense. Universities are not equipped to deal with actual crimes.

      • Palmer

        It’s a criminal matter and should be treated as such.

        • clay

          Do schools receiving federal assistance have any responsibility to insure that they are providing education regardless of sex and gender?

          • Palmer

            I don’t know, and don’t see how that would be relevant.

          • clay

            Then you might want to read the letter DeVos is tossing away.

      • Phillip in L.A.

        ‘Universities are not equipped to deal with actual crimes.’

        This is why Universities have their own police departments, who deal with “actual crimes” every single day of the week

        • j.martindale

          Campus police turn people over to the municipal authorities for adjudicating crimes. They are a private police force, not a court.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            No police ever “adjudicate crimes”–they investigate, and bring their evidence to a prosecutor. Campus police work the same way.

          • j.martindale

            Wow, that point just zoomed past you, didn’t it?

          • Phillip in L.A.

            Donna Summer–“Say Something Nice” (D. Summer), from her 1977 album, Once Upon A Time

            https://youtu.be/bTQBw-DMU00

    • GayOldLady

      Well, you know she has all these powerful male friends and family members who think that “boys will be boys” and that any claim of rape or sexual assault has to be proved by video evidence, witnesses, DNA and a complete dissection of the victims sexual life before the rape. The victim must be a virgin, otherwise she wasn’t a victim, she was willing.

    • Rex

      They will not be satisfied, no matter how it harms the citizens of this county, until everything associated with Obama is done away with. It will take years to clean up after the Trump administration, and some things will be permanently damaged.

      • Phillip in L.A.

        I have this strange feeling Pres Obama is gonna get blamed for the “results” of the “investigation” into the 2016 U.S. Presidential election. After all, he must have known what was going on! (And if he didn’t know, he should have.) I predict the Congress will search (unsuccessfully) for a way to do a retroactive impeachment!

        • Rex

          I’m sure he will be blamed, and it won’t even be reasonable, they’ve given up on presenting a rational argument.

    • Ragnar Lothbrok
    • JustDucky

      Also misogyny.

    • JCF

      Because “Nice Girls Don’t Get Raped” {and if they do, they TAKE IT as Christianist Gawd intended}

  • Sam_Handwich

    i guess i’ve never understood why there is a “campus judicial process”

    sexual assault is a crime. why isn’t it handled by law enforcement?

    • safari

      Expelling a student has its own process.

      • Treant

        Except that it’s difficult for a student to attend class or play football if their ass is in the slammer because of a rape conviction. 🙂

        • clay

          Yes, but notice that you wrote “rape conviction”, which, like DeVos, completely ignores other sexual assault and harassment, and which, like DeVos completely ignores the federal right not to lose access to education on the basis of sex or gender.

          • Treant

            Yep, best I can do in a Trump administration.

    • Gustav2

      Campus police have their own “jurisdiction” now. The local city police would rather have them handle most situations first and stay out of campus politics.

      • Phillip in L.A.

        It’s interesting to see how campus police and local police interact. I live near (i.e., within the jurisdiction of) UC Campus Police, and they seem to do most of the traffic stops within a few blocks of campus, although their jurisdiction extends to “within one mile from the exterior [Campus] boundaries.” (Cal.Educ.C. § 92600).

        But just try calling UC Police about any other issue (unless one lives in campus housing), and they will refuse to come, even when their jurisdiction is pointed out to them (and even if the Penal Code or another statute makes it a crime for them to refuse to investigate). They have some kind of agreement with LAPD, but I have no idea what it is.

    • Ragnar Lothbrok

      Oh, it’s usually just locker room play. Frat boys gotta frat ya know.

      • cleos_mom

        “Awwhesjustagoodoleboy.”

    • Treant

      Technically, if you call the cops, it should be. Campus judicial processes tend to be a joke.

      I got wrapped up in one on a minor thing, completely screwed over because I wasn’t sucking up properly to the person in charge, and repeatedly threatened with being called back into her office. It only stopped when I pointed out that I’d be complaining about her…and it probably wasn’t the first time…so I’d drop it if I were her.

      She dropped it.

    • clay

      Because schools have legal liability for student safety on campus. Which is also why the standard of evidence for CIVIL cases was more appropriate.

      • Bob Conti

        While a preponderance of the evidence standard is perhaps more appropriate then the next level which is clear and convincing, the “Letter to Colleagues” that the Obama administration sent out also prevented the accused from the ability to conduct cross-examination and other procedures that would be available to a defendant in a civil action. I’m no DeVos fan, but I did represent the son of a friend who was accused and we had witnesses who could testify in his defense. We did not, however, have the opportunity to cross-examine the accuser, that was expressly prohibited because cross-ex might be too traumatic. I agree that perhaps we don’t need a Boston Legal pitbull kind of attack, but the ability to test a witnesses’ credibility is a bulwark of any kind of due process. Did I mention I can’t stand DeVos, and her minion Candace Jackson was actually an associate at one of my former firms. She never seemed quite so… conservatively-rabid… to me.

        • clay

          The DoE Letter blanked cross-examination on BOTH sides because it’s not the people under investigation– is the act.

          • Bob Conti

            People commit “:the act” and the act can only be proven by the evidence, which in these cases is primarily testimony. And there was no blanket bar with regard to cross-examination of the accused. In my case, there was no doubt that “the act” was consensual, but as soon as the mother found out that her darling little angel acted the way she did, mom simply was convinced that her daughter had been forced into a compromising situation. We won, btw, and the kid wasn’t expelled, but that was only because the incident supposedly happened at a party and there were plenty of people, male and female, who backed up my client’s side of the story. But if this didn’t have such a decent sized witness count (we stopped at 3, although there were about 12 more waiting outside in the hallway), cross-examination would be essential.

          • LarryChemEngr

            ?? Then why is cross-examination allowed in regular rape trials?

            Why is a campus rape handled differently from an off-campus rape? Why is a civil case more appropriate for a campus rape, but a criminal case is more appropriate for an off-campus rape?

            I am not comfortable with these inconsistencies. Maybe demos is making a sensible change, and she is being attacked just because she is a Trump appointee. (And, I can’t stand Trump.)

          • Bob Conti

            Well, technically, the accused in a campus hearing isn’t being accused of rape, the person’s being accused of a campus policy violation, so that’s the basis for the different standards of proof. There was a Slate article last week or so that also said if this was coming from somebody sane, i.e., not from DeVos, then it would be viewed as a reasonable tweaking of Title IX standards.

          • clay

            It’s allowed in CRIMINAL trials. These school hearings are not CRIMINAL proceedings! They are not in replacement of criminal proceedings. They do not result in convictions. They result in evidence for orders of protection. They result in schools changing course enrollments and housing assignments. They result, at worst, in expulsions.

          • LarryChemEngr

            But rape is a serious crime, and should be handled as a criminal matter, right? So, why is it being handled as a civil matter by the colleges in the first place?

          • clay

            It should be investigated as a criminal matter, and the Obama DoE Letter does nothing to interfere with that. It should ALSO be investigated as a possible interference with one’s federal right to equal access to education regardless of sex or gender.

          • LarryChemEngr

            Wait a minute. I thought that in these cases, the police are not brought in, no criminal case is filed, and it is all handled by the college. no?

          • clay

            No! This separate from and in addition to any state/local criminal investigation and case.

          • LarryChemEngr

            So, why the dual process? Why not just let the police and the justice system do their jobs? If we’re talking about rape, it is a very serious crime, not some campus policy violation.

            Haven’t there been cases where the accused was removed from college, but no criminal charges or trial was ever conducted?

          • clay

            Because schools that receive federal assistance must protect equal protection to education. Those accused were removed without due process BEFORE the DoE letter. Those found more likely than not to be interfering with educational access were removed AFTER the DoE letter.

          • LarryChemEngr

            But if it went to criminal procedure, like DeVos seems to be advocating, they would get due process for the serious crime of rape. If found guilty, they would go to jail and be removed from campus. If found not guilty, then they also were not guilty of interfering with educational access, and wouldn’t be removed from campus unjustly. right?

            I don’t consider rape to be equivalent to interfering with educational access.

          • clay

            She’s not advocating that it goes by criminal procedure. She’s allowing it to be simply ignored by some schools.

            I take it you’ve never tried to concentrate on your exam while your rapist is sitting behind you. It might interfere with your educational access.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            “If found not guilty, then they also were not guilty of interfering with educational access, and wouldn’t be removed from campus unjustly, right?”

            No, not necessarily. A finding of “not guilty” may simply be a finding there was not evidence of guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt”(*); however, the standard for interfering with educational access (and other civil matters) is LOWER. (In other words, if there is evidence that tips the scale one way or the other, but it is not conclusive, that is enough to win a civil proceeding, theoretically speaking.)

            (*) As in Scots law, there is a judgment in criminal cases of “not proven”

          • LarryChemEngr

            Thanks for the clarifying legal information, btw. I’m not a lawyer.

          • Mark_in_MN

            Because the criminal proceeding and a school enforcing it’s own policies and protecting the right of access of students on the basis of sex and gender are different matters, different systems, and different potential outcomes. It would be inappropriate to combine them. If an employee was accused of embezzling funds, would you insist that there not be a dual process and that the employer needs to wait for the outcome of a police investigation and court proceedings? This is not really any different a process. Criminal investigations and charges happen in one process, while the employer investigates the allegations itself and fires the employee if they believe that the employee was indeed stealing.

          • trog

            “they result, at worst, in expulsions” … not a big deal at all, right? unless you’re the person expelled and your whole life is upended without any due process given to you.

            Try explaining your expulsion during a job interview by telling the potential employer, Oh don’t worry, it wasn’t for a CRIMINAL cause.

            I believe in the concept of person being innocent until proven guilty, whether criminal or civil or whatever.

          • clay

            Where in the Obama DoE letter are you finding this “without any due process”? The Obama DoE letter was the first to require equal due process in all schools receiving federal funds. DeVos’ rescinding of that does nothing to protect due process. In fact, rescinding the letter is what will reduce due process protections.

          • trog

            I totally agree with you on all points.

      • netxtown

        I have to disagree. Charging anyone with rape is life altering. Being raped is life altering. Neither should be a civil case, Still, women are getting the short of the deal. This has to be fixed.

        • clay

          They should be both. Campus civil proceedings to not remove criminal culpability in any way. It’s not an either/or, except for you. Saying there can be no civil penalty for rape means that it will be LESS punished than every other CRIME. Victims of (other) crimes can take their attackers to civil court to recover damages– why not survivors of rape? Survivors of other crimes can take schools to civil court for failure to protect them– why not survivors of rape? If schools should have the ability to remove students who interfere with education with bullhorns or with guns, why not with genitals?

          • netxtown

            But— the school has authority to level a civil charge? My thoughts here are that it seems to make rape a ‘payable’ offense – almost like a fine…instead of jail time. It’s all such a touchy subject….

          • The_Wretched

            The school can pull any and all support and access. That may include stipends, scholarships, housing, showing up for sporting events, concerts and other campus activities. Depending on how a loan is structured, a student might have to repay a loan they would have gotten forgiveness on and would have accelerated payments due on other loans. I don’t think they could create a fine out of thin air (i could be wrong though).

          • clay

            The school is not leveling the charge. The school is hearing the case. And the easiest way to win one of these civil cases is AFTER the state wins the criminal case. I do believe that an assaulter should ALSO pay fines, otherwise the assaulted will have increased bills, interfering with their ability pay tuition, buy books. . . CLEARLY putting the SCHOOL in violation of Title IX.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            Yes, after the State wins a criminal case, it is merely a matter of filing the right paperwork (more or less), to get a civil judgment.

            However, also please see me comment upthread about California’s “Victims’ Bill of Rights,” which REQUIRES criminal courts to add restitution awards to CRIMINAL judgments of conviction, where there is a victim who suffered damages

          • Uncle Mark

            Well, think about if one of the rapists (as often the case) is one of the college’s best team atheletes? How much better that the college simply pay for the young lady’s “inconvenience.” Better yet, if the college is hearing the case, they already have a vested interest in making sure the lady loses, as the college cannot afford to lose their star athelete nor have a reputation for allowing rapes to happen on campus.

          • Uncle Mark

            The reason I am expressing skepticism about colleges’ conduct on this is that I went to a Catholic college many decades ago, and there was a rape that occurred in the campus parking lot. The college newspaper printed up an emergency edition to alert everyone. The administration tried to keep the whole situation quiet, and even went in to seize the publication warning the students. The newspaper staff secretly passed out the forbidden edition to friends and acquaintances to distribute to anyone they could on campus. The cover-up blew up…getting into the mainstream media, and it turned out that the campus was trying to hide an earlier rape with the same M.O. As a result quite a number of ladies decide to enroll elsewhere the next year.

          • Bob Conti

            People who were attacked can file assault and battery, sexual battery and intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress claims (to name a few) against the alleged attacker by way of a civil action. Again, the campus hearing is to determine whether school policy was violated. It doesn’t obviate a person’s other judicial options.

          • clay

            Yes, but those will do nothing to insure the federally guaranteed right to equal access to education. Those civil rights should also be protected, and the only agency which can protect them is the school.

          • Bob Conti

            Well, technically, the DOE/DOJ can file Title IX charges or conduct a Title IX investigation which could lead to a withdrawal of federal funds, which is the only leverage under that particular law. There is no blanket federal right to equal access, the law only applies to schools that receive federal funds. State laws, however, such as the California Unruh Act, may be provide such an avenue.

          • clay

            So, instead of the schools living up to the guidelines, or being provided guidelines, should simply do (whatever) and might be corrected by individual lawsuits against them?

          • Phillip in L.A.

            Furthermore, States with Victims’ Bill of Rights require a “civil” restitution fine or penalty to be added to a criminal judgment of conviction for a violent crime, in favour of the victim. E.g., California Constitution, Article I, Section 28(a)(13), reads as follows:

            (A) It is the unequivocal intention of the People of the State of California that all persons who suffer losses as a result of criminal activity shall have the right to seek and secure restitution from the persons convicted of the crimes causing the losses they suffer.
            (B) Restitution shall be ordered from the convicted wrongdoer in every case, regardless of the sentence or disposition imposed, in which a crime victim suffers a loss.
            (C) All monetary payments, monies, and property collected from any person who has been ordered to make restitution shall be first applied to pay the amounts ordered as restitution to the victim.

            Some CA lawyers involved in criminal law are still not aware of this provision of law!

      • j.martindale

        They do not have a responsibility for punishing violations of the law, merely providing the safest environment possible for the students. I respectfully disagree. It is a situation of guilty until proven innocent.

        • clay

          Then you’ll need to be advocating an elimination of Title IX. Schools will no longer need to guarantee equal access to education regardless of sex or gender. This is not, never has been, about criminal law; it’s about civil rights to equal education access.

          • j.martindale

            Prosecution of illegal behavior by legitimate authorities has built in safeguards for the plaintiff and defendant. School judicial councils do not. A school has an obligation once the legal system has found a person guilty of a crime to follow through and expel the criminals, but not before. Otherwise you face the type of injustice that was done to the Duke LaCross team. No one is deprived of Title IX protections by implementing the legal protections guaranteed the accused.

          • JustDucky

            That is simply false.

            The rate of convictions in rape cases is shamefully low.

            “Although roughly 1 in 6 women nationwide are victims of sexual assault — with the rate being higher for women in college, according to the National Crime Victimization Survey — rapists often escape jail time. Only between 8 percent and 37 percent of rapes ever lead to prosecution, according to research funded by the Department of Justice, and just 3 percent to 18 percent of sexual assaults lead to a conviction.”

            http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5500432

            That means that somewhere between 82% and 97% of rape victims would be required to continue to see their rapist in class or in their dorm or run into their rapist in the dining hall. And when a minimum of 16% of the female population (and a portion of the male population as well) is terrorized in that way, they are not being granted equal access to an education.

          • j.martindale

            Then work to change that law, not put it in the hands of some college council. Academics are not equipped to make these judgments. That is not their province.

          • JustDucky

            A university is allowed to expel a student if the university finds that student cheated. Are you seriously arguing that a university shouldn’t also be allowed to expel a student if the university finds that student is a threat to the safety of other students?

          • j.martindale

            Yes. If a person is charged with criminal conduct, he is subject to criminal penalties. And he is also permitted to put on a defense and be exonerated. Cheating is not a criminal behavior. As I say elsewhere in this chain, schools are not prohibited from suspending people charged with crimes. They can always suspend accused rapists and await decisions of the court. But they should not supplant the court in terms of criminal matters. I say this as a person who taught for many years in colleges and universities, and as someone who also worked in the justice system later in life. School administrators and college councils are ill equipped to handle these matters.

          • JustDucky

            The schools are not “supplanting the court” because the schools are not handing out criminal penalties. The schools are merely enforcing their own codes of conduct. Any criminal proceedings are a separate matter entirely.

          • j.martindale

            They are deciding the guilt of the accused and punishing them with expulsion. And they are not well equipped to do that. As a matter of fact, they are not equipped at all.

          • JustDucky

            Just like they decide the guilt of a student accused of cheating and punish him with expulsion. Or like they decide the guilt of a student accused of literally any other code of conduct violation and punish him with the predetermined punishment for that conduct breach.

            So what makes this particular code of conduct breach so different, hmm? Why isn’t it okay for schools to dole out the exact same punishment they use for less serious conduct breaches for this conduct breach?

          • j.martindale

            Because this is a case that involves a criminal legal judgment. Issues such as cheating, missing classes and such are not legal infractions, but scholastic infractions. They, furthermore, do not have concomitant criminal penalties. And expulsion is an appropriate reaction of the academic institution once the criminal courts have ruled it actually occurred.

          • JustDucky

            By definition, it does not involve a “criminal legal judgement.” The expelled student does not gain a criminal record on the basis of the expulsion. Nor is the expelled student placed on a sex offender registry or sent to prison or given probation.

            And guess what? If the expelled student has an issue with the expulsion, he can take the matter to court, where they will issue a legal judgement.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            They are ill-equipped, but they have an obligation under Federal law (Title IX). So what now?

          • j.martindale

            The schools have no business fixing a problem with the justice system. And as I said elsewhere, students can be suspended when charged with crimes. Rape victims would NOT have to face assailants.

          • clay

            The Duke LaCrosse team case is an inappropriate example for two reasons. 1) it was before the Obama DoE letter. 2) it was not heard by Duke as a Title IX violation.

            The Obama DoE letter explicitly standardized safeguards for school judicial councils. It explicitly required EQUAL access to evidence, notifications, counsel, and appeal. Now we get to return to a mismash of unequal proceedings.

          • j.martindale

            To my knowledge, no colleges or universities are precluded from suspending students that have been charged with crimes. It happens all the time. If a person is charged with rape, the school is fully capable of suspending the students and awaiting the outcome of a trial. That should be the protection the schools afford the students.

            It seems to me that many people here are saying that too many young men are getting away with rape, and the schools need to step in and pick up the slack by doing what the Criminal Justice people are doing so badly. That is not a solution to the problem. If the problem is with the courts, fix the laws governing the courts.

          • clay

            Your second paragraph is absolutely NOT reflected in the actual DoE letter. It is propaganda spouted all over in attack of it. Rescinding the DoE letter, accomplishes nothing that you’re asking for.

          • j.martindale

            My paragraph doesn’t relate to any letter. It relates to the posts in this chain.

          • caphillprof

            Enough already. I wonder if you were accused of rape and convicted (albeit civilly) by a academic kangaroo court, if you would take this cavalier attitude. Remember, after the advent of DNA analysis, it was established that fully one third of all persons previously convicted of rape could not possibly have been the rapist.

          • JustDucky

            [Citation needed.]

          • clay

            Wanting equal standing for the accused and the accuser at all schools is not a cavalier attitude, in fact, it’s kind of the opposite.

          • LarryChemEngr

            But, that is what is confusing about the narrative from the Dept of Education. DeVos is saying that she is trying to provide the same legal protections for the accused that we expect from due process. So, isn’t DeVos trying to create an equal standing? How will her action remove equal protections for accused vs accuser?

          • clay

            No, she’s lying. She’s quoted, above, as saying schools can now weigh the accused’s words more heavily than the accuser’s word. She’s rescinding the federal EO that requires EQUAL due process, the only guidelines that required schools to insure equal access to evidence, to notifications, to counsel, and to appeal.

          • Paul

            Perhaps a less generous reading of Title IX should be warranted?

    • Phil in Colorado

      Just wanted to chime in and say that this whole thread has been fantastic to read. I’ve been getting frustrated lately with the comments here, wading through endless memes and off-topic discussions. It’s been very enlightening to read all the points of view about campus rape because I admit I’ve been very confused myself over the differences between campus courts and criminal courts. Thanks for an excellent discussion!

  • skyweaver

    I see a direct line between grab ’em by the pussy and today’s decision. Shame on you, Betsy, for betraying the women and men who are the victims of sexual assault

    • Frostbite

      sexual assault is for the little people. privileged (rich, white, old) women like her don’t engage in that stuff, their husbands have mistresses for that.

      • Dreaming Vertebrate

        Dumpf: When you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything.

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  • safari
    • Sam_Handwich
      • Lazycrockett

        duh

      • safari

        Communion will be entertaining in the Bannon cult that will emerge.

        • Lumpy Gaga

          “Does this meat taste funny to you?”

          [I’ll be here all week. Try the veal.]

      • The_Wretched

        It’s too bad he only lasted 10 days.

      • Gustav2

        Pshaw! Who da thunk it?

      • Lumpy Gaga

        Spread the word. Sucking your own dick is a white nationalist tendency.

    • clay

      There’s two of them?

      • medaka

        I have no US TV here, but I’m guessing that the Mooch on the left might be Mario Cantone, the actor from Sex in the City who was looking forward to playing him on SNL. Ammaright?

    • Phillip in L.A.

      Didn’t know Stepford produced husbands, as well!

  • Treant

    So. Pitchforks and torches now, folks? Nope? Still OK with it?

    Alrighty then. I’ll be over there, collecting seeds. Call me.

    • Christopher

      When this country flat out REFUSED to implement comprehensive gun control after TWENTY CHILDREN were gunned down in a heinous attack on an elementary school, then nothing surprises me.

      It’s sad that this nation has fallen so far, so fast.

  • Will Parkinson

    Who’s your friend in government? I forget.

  • The_Wretched

    Who wants to make life easier for rapists? Republicans.

  • Ragnar Lothbrok

    College kid : ” Mom, Something happened to me at school last night ”

    Mom : ” We voted for Trump, just be quiet about it “

  • Steverino

    I gather scAMWAY doesn’t sell rape kits.

    • Bryan

      No, but they sell some great bristle brushes and detergents to remove the stains.

    • boatboy_srq

      Theirs come with “how-to” booklets.

  • Bluto

    1 in 5 women are raped at college. ONE IN FIVE. Thanks for helping them, you evil BITCH.

  • GayOldLady

    A woman of privilege and power decides that vulnerable, powerless women, in a system that can only be described as a patriarchy, one that has historically favored men over women in these cases, decides that women must once again be held to a higher standard of proof. We’re back to the defense being “she was willing”. And people, particularly men, wonder why women don’t come forward after sexual assaults? Goddamn it

    • clay

      Exactly. The Obama DoE Letter put accuser and accused on equal footing. The declaration by DeVos means that some schools are free to give even more than the benefit of the doubt to the accused, only.

      • GayOldLady

        If you haven’t heard or read about the Vanderbilt rape case, you should. This rape was literally captured on cell video and campus video it still took several years to get a conviction of the perpetrators.

        • Ragnar Lothbrok

          Yeah, but what was she wearing ?

          S/

    • Phillip in L.A.

      I feel your anger and pain, GayOldLady! Just wanted to point out that men are raped as well (despite some snarky posts upthread to the contrary), sometimes by women–although perhaps such cases are anomalous

      • GayOldLady

        I agree and I know several men who were raped as teens. I know men who were the victims of pedophiles, including a man who was molested by his own mother. Several by priests. So, I know that rape is rape, no matter the gender, it is a hideous crime. Still, it’s undeniable that girls and women make up the vast majority of rape victims and campuses can become hunting grounds for predators if the tolerance bar is set to low. 1 in 4 women experience some sort of sexual assault while on campus, that is unacceptable.

        • Phillip in L.A.

          Totally agree, 100%

  • boatboy_srq

    Those girls were asking for it attending university like that.

    /s

  • Karl Dubhe

    {bannable}

  • Xiao Ai: The Social Gadfly

    What rape culture looks like.

  • TuuxKabin

    Go back to college you dog and I hope you get humped.

    • medaka

      Well, I personally hope that she gets her krunt filled with Russian cement then dropped off into the Mariana Trench, but that’s just me.
      ——-

      Yes, my dear, I am home.

      In Yamato. It was a very hard 6 weeks in the US.

      Everything hurts.

      I’ll catch up with you in the next coupla weeks or so.

      xoxox

      • TuuxKabin

        Can’t say you weren’t in the ol’ noggin’ before, during and since I last heard from you, leading up to the eclipse, and while in the HOT bay area. Gawd. Was like a blizzard day, we hunkered down and in. No AC of course and luckily the house had a big ass fan to blow and pull the air around.

        Found a photo of David, uh huh, what was the name of the war movie he was in? Will embellish it to send along, but leave the original intact for you.

        Good tidings, due east sun rise, due west sunset. MIst you zo. oxo

  • Ken M

    Legally “Rape” cannot happen between two people of the same gender. Men do not rape other men. They either sodomize them or they may be deemed as “same sex crimes.” Try getting that to hold any water for the victim.

  • Rebecca Gardner

    Women never receive justice in cases of Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault. That is a sad fact of life. Attempted murder and a beating so bad the crime scene photographer mentioned she never photographed anyone as injured as me. Three 1/2 years of putting my life through hell and the District Attorney’s office never wanting to speak to me they just gave up like it never happened and dropped the charges. I don’t know who cried harder. My victims advocate or me.

    If, in self-defense, I slapped him and there was a red mark on him I probably would have been held without bail until trial, and then sentenced to five years.

    I’m so sick and tired of this bullshit. My abuser used to tell me, “Silly girl. There’s men, dogs, livestock, then women.” I think he got that idea from watching how our legal system treats women.

    *steps off soapbox*

    • ZRAinSWVA

      I’m so sorry you went through that Rebecca, and that the system failed you so badly!

      • GayOldLady

        The system fails thousands of women everyday in these cases.

        • Rebecca Gardner

          Are you familiar with Marissa Alexander? Her story should piss everyone off. Her husband constantly beat her. One day she tried to stand up for herself. She grabbed her husband’s pistol and fired a warning shot to prevent him from beating her. She was given a 20 year prison sentence.

          • GayOldLady

            I’m very familiar with that case because it happened shortly after George Zimmerman succeeded in using the FL stand your ground law as a defense in the “MURDER” of Trayvon Martin. There is no justice!!!!

          • Rebecca Gardner

            Stand your ground only applies if you have a penis and very low levels of melanin.

          • clay

            They’re the only ones the Founders recognized as having a right to own the ground.

      • Rebecca Gardner

        Thanks. Getting my head straight and not being afraid to even go outside took a long time, but I tried. I realized I needed professional help when in 2014 my PTSD was so bad I would wake up screaming every night because he would shoot me in the head in every very vivid night terror.

    • cleos_mom

      Sorry to hear that happened, and even sorrier that you were told that.

    • Phillip in L.A.

      Sorry to hear this, Rebecca! I have been sexually assaulted before, and been the victim of domestic violence (but nothing as serious as you mentioned). Out of curiosity, in what State did your experience take place?

  • Ken M

    The “New Standard” – SHOW US THE SEMEN! Isn’t she one of the ones that the LCR said was on the side of the LGBT community?

  • LarryChemEngr

    Why is it better for the college to investigate campus rape accusations than the police investigating them?

    • cleos_mom

      To lower the danger of the victim being shot? Just a guess.

    • clay

      Why are you trying to make this and either/or?

      • LarryChemEngr

        Because I think the criminal justice system, and not universities, will do a more competent job of it.

  • Uncle Mark

    This decision must be based on some of those fine Christian principles this bitch keeps crowing about. Clearly, they hate consensual sex outside of marriage, but are fine with rape…especially since it’s mainly men doing the raping.

  • Texndoc

    Wasn’t it Columbia where “Matress Girl” carried it from class to class and named another student and it had more to do with her “performance art” than reality? I recall reading the accused collected a hefty sum from the university for HIS torment. She should have been booted out on her ass.

    • clay

      And DeVos’ action means the student she accused might now have to meet a HIGHER standard of proof that he was being harassed.

      • Texndoc

        Uhm, the reason he’s incredibly rich now is because the school did nothing but let her go on with her bulllshit while he was persecuted.

        • clay

          Yeah, it’s not based on the sex of the parties, it’s based on the harassment and the equality of representation. Notice the timeline, here– “Matress Girl”, 2014; Obama DoE letter, 2016.

  • cleos_mom

    Now someone tell me AGAIN why “both parties are the same” and how last year both candidates were so terrible.

  • Babaloo

    Betsy says: “If she wasn’t drinking in the first place, this never would have happened.”

    • Dreaming Vertebrate

      Todd Akin: If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down.

      • Tomcat

        And that is exactly why the woman gets bruising and tears from trying to shut it down. But I guess that is just foreplay to Betsy.

        • Dreaming Vertebrate

          She really is a soulless monster.
          Hope a grizzly bear gets her.

          • Why do you hate grizzly bears?

      • GayOldLady

        A woman can fight like a banshee and hope that the guy doesn’t kill her in the process.

        • clay

          (not if he drugged her, first)

      • When a woman goes out, she needs to keep an aspirin handy to hold one between her knees…..sigh

  • gaycuckhubby

    Horrible people. Baskets of deplorables was too kind

    • How about crates of bigots? Barrels of dreck?

  • Dreaming Vertebrate

    OK – my blood is just boiling!
    (Guess we can toss out that old “dinos are ectotherms” theory!)

  • Tomcat

    I guess they just need to make it legal for the ladies to just shoot their rapist as self protection. Since the colleges don’t want to bother the boys while they play.

    • clay

      more and more states are disallowing gun restrictions on campus . . .

      • Dreaming Vertebrate

        A really bad idea. Too many students think they deserve an A+, while the professor and their numerical score says C , D or F.

        • David Walker

          Fortunately, college students are no longer involved in the use of drugs, alcohol, or wrong-thinking. Nothing can go wrong with guns on campus. It’s a Murkin right.

          • Dreaming Vertebrate

            Ha! And they say I’m Dreaming.

          • Tomcat

            Would you know sarcasm if it hit you in the head Sheldon?

          • clay

            and no more emotionally unstable young men . . . and schizophrenia is always diagnosed well in advance . . . and Praise Geezus!

  • Tomcat

    Maybe it is time to start suing the colleges for not protecting their paying customers as in any business.

    • clay

      You mean, like what sparked the Obama DoE letter. /s

      Other businesses do not have the additional burden of Title IX.

  • HZ81

    Republicans are pro-rape.

    • Well those women deserved it! Being outside of the house, with more than hands, feet and face exposed. They were asking for it. /SNARK

    • Paula

      As long as it is a legitimate rape. They woman’s body has a way of knowing.
      /s

      • HZ81

        Doesn’t putting an aspirin between a naughty woman-person’s legs stop it, too? Something like that.

        • Paula

          Yes. But, you know how slutty those straight womens can be.

  • Tellersma

    Campus rape polices do need fixing, especially when it comes to defining rape. As they’re written now half of my sexual encounters as a freshman would constitute my being raped, at least. I would recommend this article from The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-campus-rape-policy/538974/) to see what these policies actually mean. I’m all for taking rape way more seriously, but redefining it like it has been does more harm than good in my opinion.

  • Joe in PA

    And LCR is a-ok with this. 🙁

  • ted-

    Why am I even surprised with this shit these days…?

  • Tomcat

    Does anyone go to college for an education anymore?
    Or is it just one big drink / fuck fest?

  • Lumpy Gaga

    “clear and convincing”, “affordable and available”

    Sensing a pattern?

  • j.martindale

    I don’t disagree with these changes. The schools have no business being part of the legal process. Let the courts handle this where there are rules of evidence in place.

    • Tiger Quinn

      This point of view would seem to stem from a lack of personal experience with how colleges function and what the environment is actually like. If yours was NOT like that, congratulations, you have no idea what the hell this issue is at all.

      • j.martindale

        I taught as a full professor for 12 years. I understand higher education pretty well, I believe.

    • clay

      The Obama DoE letter sets out a consistent level of rules of evidence. Rescinding it means that there will NOT be consistent rules of evidence.

      • j.martindale

        Inadequate rules as has been shown by inconsistent application nationwide.

        • clay

          The Letter significantly standardized methods. DeVos’s announcement says “that colleges may now use a higher standard of evidence” or not, depends. Rescinding the Letter will make application even more inconsistent nationwide.

          • Lumpy Gaga

            Lacrosse Coaches’ rights!!!!

      • j.martindale

        No, it means it leaves it up to the criminal courts to prosecute criminal behavior.

        • clay

          The DoE letter never was about criminal prosecutions.

    • Phillip in L.A.

      Well, if schools want any federal funding, they have no choice but to be “part of the legal process”; however, I am not sure any of the changes made in the last 10-15 years in this area have helped anyone, whether victim or accused (but I am certainly open to hearing stories of how wrong I am!)

  • JWC

    No matter the portfolio in the Trump administration , if anything in it mentions or suggestes “Obama” its must be reversed ,removed and irradicated. Trump so hates Obama

    • As do all of the GOP.

      • JWC

        It’s almost as if there isd a stain on the books they have to remove

  • bambinoitaliano
    • bambinoitaliano
      • Bob Conti

        That’s hyperbolic. There are still obligations that exist with regard to Title IX. All it did was rescind the Letter to Colleagues letter advice that honestly needed some revision in order to provide equal access to due process. It’s more about procedure than substance.

        • clay

          So schools can now go back to unequal levels of due process.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            It’s been pretty unequal, but I certainly repudiate Ms De Vos’s absurd, dangerous, and ignorant reversal of Pres Obama’s policy

          • clay

            EQUAL access to evidence,
            EQUAL access to notifications,
            EQUAL access to counsel,
            EQUAL access to appeal,
            EQUAL weight to their words,
            EQUALLY access the United States.

            That’s what the “Dear Colleagues” letter gave us. That’s what DeVos is getting RID of.

          • Phillip in L.A.

            You are preaching to the choir

          • Bob Conti

            Good Lord no. Clay, I really agree with 99.9% of your posts and I appreciate your perspective, and I think we’re on the same general page. All I’m saying is that what’s been rescinded is a specific Dear Colleagues letter dated April 4, 2011 that sets out among other things the inability to conduct cross-examination. And yes, Clay, you’re right from an earlier post, the letter specifically prevents the parties from cross-examining each other, but the reality is that the accused will, indeed, be cross-examined by school officials. In any event, there are actual regulations that have been formally adopted in the Code of Federal Regulations that deal with the schools’ duty to investigate and take appropriate action to prevent the harassment from continuing. What happened with regard to DeVos (as I’ve said before, I can’t stand the woman and she’s singularly unqualified to be in her position) pulling out on the Dear Colleagues letter does nothing to strike out these federal regulations.

          • clay

            The Dear Colleagues letter was the first time the federal government said schools had to guarantee EQUAL access to notifications, evidence, counsel, and appeal. Those have now been rescinded. Schools are no longer required to provide equal due process to either the accuser, or the accused.

            The Dear Colleagues letter was the first time the federal government said all Title IX schools had to take the accusers’ words as equal to the accuseds’ words. That has now been rescinded. Schools are now free to take one side over the other.

            And, yes, schools are still going to be held legally responsible, but now with no federal guidance or standards to fall back on.

          • Bob Conti

            But the problem with the Dear Colleague letter is that the DOE expected that it would carry the same weight as actual regulations that had been put through the regulatory review process. My understanding (and I could just be all wrong) is that they wanted to put due process with proper notice, etc. as well as the ability to cross examine, through the normal vetting process. Really, my biggest issue with the Dear Colleague letter was taking away cross-ex by the parties. This includes the accuser’s right to cross-ex the accused to show the accused has credibility issues, it’s a two-edged sword.

    • KnownDonorDad
  • Jon Doh

    Betsy’s college (Calvin College) has never had a rape because good christian girls like her don’t act all slutty and encourage it and the boys are all saving themselves for their wedding night. The dorms showers don’t have or need hot water as there is no demand for it.

    • Lumpy Gaga

      “Rape. Can you use it in a sentence?”

      — BDeV

  • bambinoitaliano
  • pch1013

    People like her make me wish I believed in hell.

  • Lee Grupsmith-Pedersen

    If this is going to be the situation, then I suggest collegiate women start carrying something at all times that will help them feel secure: pepper spray, a knife, a pistol; however, the latter two only after sufficient training. Also they could take the initiative and attack the occasional jock or two (in whatever numbers they will feel secure with) and compromise THEM. If preponderance of evidence is needed, this should languish for months.

  • pete

    did anyone ever thinks she wouldn’t? well at least apparently colleges only “may” use her bar.

  • clay

    B. DeVos– No longer will schools be required to provide the accused with equal access to notification, evidence, counsel or appeal. No longer will schools have to provide accusers with equal status as the accused. No longer do schools have to care if sexual harassers are in the same classes as their harassed. Title IX is only about female jocks.

  • Phillip in L.A.

    “had been long sought by advocates of accused students, mostly men”

    Say no more

  • TexasBoy

    What does one expect from someone appointed by Donald “Grab ‘Em By The Pussy” Trump?

  • Friday

    Evil DeVos facilitates Christian college rape coverups.

  • Paris

    One small step to avoid a false accusation from ruining a student’s life and everyone loses their shit. Swung too far left, now going a little more toward center.

  • KnownDonorDad

    She’s just awful.

  • acde

    ….and it is only the xtian thing to do

  • pablo

    In 20 years the college rape hysteria will be remembered the way we remember the Satanic panic of the 80’s.

  • Hank

    As a “supposed woman” DeVos should KNOW better!!!! The average age of my freshman class in college, was 16.6 years old. You are dealing with males in their teens, who, while they should no better, are still pretty much adolescent!!! Girls/women need MORE protection, not less!!!!

  • Jean-Marc in Canada

    Women need to be believed.
    Men need to be protected from false claims.

    It’s a tricky and winding path fraught with all kinds of pitfalls with no easy answers or quick fixes.

    Of course, none of this matters because this is not about helping anybody, it’s about erasing anything Obama did; that’s what makes this all the more tragic.

  • Marty Hodas

    Why are special rules even necessary? Shouldn’t they instead use the same standard of evidence that the police use?

    • Bj Lincoln

      That makes too much sense.

  • Robert Flanagan

    Oh I hope a gang of guys fucking rape the shit out of this woman!

    • JProf

      As a feminist, I am opposed to gang rape.

  • JProf

    This is good news. If you read about all of the craziness and witch hunts conducted in response to Title IX during the Obama years, you would be surprised if not outraged. A good book that deals with this topic is Laura Kipnis’s “Unwanted Advances”, which came out earlier this year. Kipnis is a professor of film and media studies at Northwestern University.

  • billbear1961

    You evil disgrace!

  • I’d like to see the next Dem president set aside his/her own ego and name every initiative they sponsor and piece of legislation they promote after Barack Obama because I hate conservative republicans and I want to drive them crazy.

  • Wynter Marie Starr

    Does this bitch have a college aged daughter? I hope not. She is a real piece of work and although I hope she never has to face sexual assault, better her than me or mine.

  • argeejay

    Attababe, Betsy Grab-’em-by-‘da-pussy DeeVoh.