Ed Sec. Betsy DeVos Announces Rollback Of Obama-Era Title IX Guidance On Sexual Assault And Harassment

USA Today reports:

Saying the Obama administration “weaponized” the U.S. Education Department’s Office of Civil Rights to work against students and schools, U.S. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on Thursday said she would replace the current approach to addressing sexual misconduct on college campuses with “a workable, effective and fair system” that more explicitly takes into account the rights of the accused.

DeVos said the Trump administration would roll back Obama’s “failed” Title IX guidance on sexual assault and harassment. Educators, she said, have complained that the current system amounts in many cases to “kangaroo courts,” in which the rights of the accused are given short shrift unless they can afford to hire legal representation to pursue complaints. “No student should be forced to sue their way to due process,” she said.

The National Education Association reacts:

Educators across the nation are appalled that the Department of Education has decided to weaken protections for students who survive campus sexual assault or harassment. This decision offends our collective conscience and conflicts with the basic values of equality, safety, and respect that we teach our students every day. Title IX is essential to protect each student’s right to equal access to education and an educational experience free from violence.

The 2011 U.S. Office of Civil Rights guidance says that both the survivor and the accused have the same rights and must be treated equally during all proceedings. Today’s announcement is another example of a Trump-DeVos agenda that scorns respect for survivors, including Secretary DeVos’s own recent meeting with radical anti-woman activists and the president’s own recorded sexual assault confession during the campaign.

The Human Rights Campaign reacts:

“With today’s announcement, Betsy DeVos is insinuating that she would prefer to take America back to a time when it was more difficult for survivors of sexual assault to receive justice,” said Sarah Warbelow, legal director for the Human Rights Campaign. “For the LGBTQ community, which faces disproportionate levels of sexual assault and violence, this decision sends a strong signal that the U.S. Department of Education will not use its full power to protect them from harm. This signal is only amplified and worsened by the actions the department took earlier this year when it callously rescinded guidance aimed at protecting transgender students.”

US Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand reacts:

“Secretary DeVos’s announcement today betrays our students, plain and simple. With so many sexual assaults still happening on college campuses all over the country, we should be doing everything we can to make our Title IX enforcement policies stronger – not weakening or jeopardizing them. The Department of Education has a responsibility to keep our students safe and to guarantee fairness to both sexual assault survivors and those accused of sexual assault crimes.

“I don’t want to see an innocent person punished any more than I want to see a guilty person let off the hook, but Secretary DeVos has shown that she does not take the rights of survivors seriously. I will do everything in my power as a Senator to fight to support our sexual assault survivors, and I urge everyone who cares about safety and fairness on our college campuses to raise your voices with me.”

  • Oscarlating Wildely

    Because there’s always two sides to rape.
    Sick.

    • That_Looks_Delicious

      Looking forward to Trump saying, “There was harassment on all sides” and “Some harassers are good people.”

      • Todd20036

        Considering that Trump himself is a rapist, I’d guess there’s a good possibility Trump would say this.

      • Unfortunately some people already believe that. Remember Brock Turner? Some people kept saying he was a “good kid”.

    • Mihangel apYrs

      “alleged” rape.

      I have read that quite a few men are suing their colleges for being expelled. “Mattress girl” springs to mind!

      Rape is a serious CRIME, and needs treating as such

      • Oscarlating Wildely

        False cases account for 2-10% of all cases per the same article.

        Compared to that amount, rape runs rampant.

        • Mihangel apYrs

          then deal with it in the criminal court

  • The_Wretched

    ” “weaponized” or maybe, actually enforced the law? toma-toe / to-mah-to.

  • safari

    “No student should be forced to sue their way to due process,” she said.

    Nor should dreamers, transgender soldiers, voters…

    • clay

      And she seems to discount women, effeminate men, persons with disabilities, trans-gender students, and others as possible “students”, since she aims to remove their recourse to the Office for Civil Rights in order to “sue their way to due process”.

  • Tawreos

    This administration loves to use “People tell me” as all the evidence needed for whatever bullshit they are shoveling at the time.

    • MusicBear88

      The Fox News principle of non-attribution.

  • Todd20036

    But officer: she wanted it/she was wearing a short skirt/she was drunk/she seduced me…

    DeVos needs to go the fuck away

  • Treant

    She should lose her transportation so I can tell her, “Bike hunt.”

  • safari

    One day someone will write an award winning screenplay about how this family (of Betsy DeVos and Erik Prince) got so screwed up.

  • JoeMyGod

    Campus rape has been a pet project of Gillibrand from day one. She’s not going to let this go easily.

    • Todd20036

      The whole point of this country is that the victim has certain rights.
      And no one (ok almost no one) fakes a rape
      And btw, women aren’t the only victims of rape, either.

      • there was apparently a man raped this past weekend in New Orleans. yes, I realize SD was going on, but no, this was a seperate incident.

        • Michael White

          I was raped in 1972 by two men with guns. I was just a “faggot coming out of of gay bar”.

          • Todd20036

            I bet they thought they weren’t gay themselves.
            That just sucks.

          • mr wonderful

            I’m sorry.
            I was raped too, same year, but very different circumstances.
            Peace, Michael. And love.

          • FAEN

            That’s awful. I’m sorry that happened to you.

          • David Walker

            1969 by my boss.

          • FAEN

            What???? Seriously? That’s terrible! Im sorry David.

          • David Walker

            6 to midnight shift at a radio station. The boss, who was never there after 5, came in and asked me to stop by his office once I’d signed off. Just the two of us in the building, I was all of 23, he offered me some of his very good scotch, and I came to in the men’s room, sore and confused and very hung over. 1969…my story vs a highly-respected pillar in the community. Like anyone would believe me. Besides, men don’t get raped.

          • FAEN

            Jesus Michael-I’m so sorry.

    • FAEN

      Every policy from this ‘administration’ has one goal and one goal only-prevent Obama from the ‘win’.

      Petty, small minded and petulant.

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    • clay

      Maybe “Reducing campus rape has been a pet project of Gillibrand”?

      • Gerry Fisher

        I love editors! They’re essential.

    • I know a lot of people don’t want another female Senator from New York to run for president, but I’ll campaign my heart out for Gillibrand if she runs for POTUS.

    • VodkaAndPolitics

      I would love to be a fly on the wall in the Trump administration…. “Good Morning, Mr. President, what shall we do today?” “Let’s make it easier to rape college co-eds.” “THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING, PERFECT!!!!!”

  • The party of rapists and Nazis.

    • bambinoitaliano

      Rapey Nazis.

  • Tatonka

    Sexual predators have always been a core component of Trump’s base.

  • Jonathan Smith

    is there NO depths they WON’T sink to?
    ……….forget i asked that……. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fabedd2798a190a30dc8105e82269de792a6a5cb967213e4393043184f563c0a.jpg

  • coram nobis

    DeVos is seeking “public comment” to develop rules to replace this. So she pulled this announcement out of thin air with no real background, it seems.

    http://www.sfgate.com/news/politics/article/The-Latest-Waiting-for-new-guidance-on-Title-IX-12179957.php

    • Adam King

      I don’t know if her ass can be referred to as “thin air.”

      • coram nobis

        I was thinking of a generic void. Nothing specific.

  • Ninja0980

    Even if Kid Rocks gets elected, the Devos/Prince family will still be the worst thing to come out of MI in quite some time.

  • Butch

    This administration really is going to run out of constituencies to alienate.
    And I went to see every last one of these people in orange jumpsuits and leg irons.

    • Adam King

      I’d wish them to have their faces rotted off by flesh-eating bacteria first, but that would be wrong of me.

      • Butch

        Maybe bad-ish, but not wrong.

    • CJAS

      This play perfectly to their base–the oppressed middle class white male and their apologists.

  • Charlie

    WTAF is wrong with her? Is she human in any way whatsoever?

    • Adam King

      No, she is not.

    • Rex

      She purchased her position, so don’t expect any moral values.

  • Jonathan Smith
  • Lars Littlefield

    Obvious a reaction to too many white upper middle class fraternity boyze getting caught with their dicks in uninvited hoo haws. Fuck ’em. Throw them in prison and fuck ’em.

    • CJAS

      So true that this is a race/class issue.

  • Rex

    This is all about reversing anything the Obama did and nothing more.
    Trump’s entire legacy will be wiping out Obama’s legacy.
    He’s so fucking jealous of Obama’s popularity that it infects everything he does, right down to hiring prostitutes to urinate on the bed Obama slept in.

    • Tiger Quinn

      And he’s petty enough to think that such things work, and as he doesn’t read and isn’t educated, he doesn’t get how history is formed. You could literally erase everything Obama did and he’d still be hardwired into living memory as one of the greatest.

    • clay

      Uh, no. That is a big part of it, but they also intend to maintain a sexist social order.

  • Carl

    Bring this up next time some blowhard says we focus on divisive “identity politics” too much.

  • Do Something Nice

    Last week she appointed a former dean at DeVry as head of the DOE fraud unit. Yes the same DeVry that was fined $100 million by that fraud unit.

    Irma, Betty wants you at her house, preferable with her in it.

    • clay

      And the chair of that unit’s advisory committee is Jerry Fallwell, Jr., president of Liberty University, known for its online diploma mill and refusal to refund extravagant tuition.

  • justmeeeee

    Makes you wanna pull out the C word.

    • Bluto

      It’s warranted in this instance.

  • Tawreos

    If she thinks the issue is so important why doesn’t she have the new policy ready to go? She has been in office for months now how can she not have the replacement ready? I bet she is rolling this back and has no replacement in hopes that people just forget about it.

  • Rebecca Gardner

    This is how Idocracy becomes reality.

  • Tiger Quinn

    This. Evil. Asshole.

  • Tawreos

    This administration is really going to miss hurricane season giving them cover for the awful shit they are doing.

  • IAMBOWLINGGREEN
  • Michael White

    When are people going to learn that for the GOP women are nothing but cum dumps? They need to be home taking care of the home as jeebus ordained.

    • Adam King

      Unless they’re wealthy–then they can purchase power and autonomy.

    • FAEN

      I agree with your comment but how fucked in the head do you have to be as a woman to vote for the party that only sees you as a cum dump.

  • safari

    I’m curious where this is heading. Just using my U as an example, it seemed that the seriousness of sexual assault only came to the forefront after the teeth of Title IX was applied. This said, I can understand why people are upset that universities don’t have good practices to handle such cases. However, the idea that the same level of evidence required in a criminal trial for expulsion is ridiculous.

    • JWC

      the religious bigot are tired of being persecuted is sooo unfair

      • safari

        It’s not even just that. Years ago I had a friend who was drugged and raped on the first weekend on campus as a freshman. She was given part of the blame by the university as she was underage drinking. I can’t imagine that happening now in part thanks to the increased focus on the victims. This here seems to be focusing on the accused, which of course is going to cause problems since it is hard to prove sexual assault in the first place.

        • clay

          DeVos is calling (quietly) to use “beyond a reasonable doubt” rather than “preponderance of the evidence” even though these are civil, not criminal, proceedings. In other words, she’s calling for the end of civil suits and protections.

        • JWC

          Yes Ms DeVoss is doing a major disservice to women everywhere

    • clay

      One place this is heading is to separate Title IX (equal educational access) from the Violence Against Women Act (as if sexual assault and harassment don’t interfere with educational access).

  • JWC

    In other word lets remove everything and the good Foxes can capabilly guard the hen house Good plan BITCH

  • bkmn

    Once again, where are the hearings on these changes? She has gotten zero public input on what will be a massive change with major implications

    • Vista-Cruiser

      Don’t worry, their Russian bots will generate a flood of public input.

  • tbj5

    Distraction. They’re even more evil than if they actually thought this way.

    • RaygunsGoZap

      Yup. She watched Rachel Maddow last night.

  • RaygunsGoZap

    Related-ish: when speaking about how Jared Kushner may have helped the Russians target their Facebook ads, that the person(s) responsible for supplying the targeting data to Kushner was the Devos family.

  • Dagoril

    Fuck this fucking bitch!

  • Do Something Nice

    Could it be that the Pussy Grabber in Chief wants DeVos to do this for ‘personal reasons’ ?

  • Babaloo

    Betsy deVos probably always blames the woman for the assault in the first place.

    • clay

      She simply doesn’t believe her that it happened, and, even if it did, that it interferes with her access to education.

  • Lazycrockett

    Well if little Johnny jr can’t rape a couple of girls during Rush Week, whats the point of going to University?

  • Bluto

    Legalized grab ’em by the pussy & queer bashing. maga.

  • Tomcat

    Devoe’s plan, they are just being boys, let them be boys and rape the girls, they like it.

  • M Jackson

    My first question is how the hell would Betsy DeVos know what any educators think?

  • Matt

    What a fucking waste of air DeVos is. Complete waste.

  • FormerMainer

    Finally some good news out of the Trump administration.

  • Bluto
    • FAEN

      Sad but true.

    • joeyj1220

      white rapists can even become President

      • Bluto

        true dat.

  • TheManicMechanic

    Replace working directives with “Grab them by the pussy.”

  • fkevin

    The police should handle campus rapes and assaults. Campus administrators and their campus police should not be involved. The town, metropolitan and state police should investigate theses crimes. The accused students are legal adults who should face prosecution.

    • clay

      And what should the schools do when the students are enrolled in the same classes, or when someone on trial intentionally enrolls in the same class as the complainant? What happens when it’s a supervisor in an educational lab or internship? The criminal proceedings are not sufficient to protect the students’ civil rights to equal educational access.

      • Mihangel apYrs

        accusation conviction.

    • Tulle Christensen

      The Campus police at my old school were state police with all the same powers of any other state police, so….BTW it was University of Florida

    • Friday

      The only hangup *there* is how long the criminal process takes compared to how soon an *institution* would be expected to get an actual threat to others within that out of there.

  • Pip

    These. Fucking. People.

    What else would we expect from an admin run by a man who admitted that he casually sexually assaults women and was still elected president. This country is so fucking brainwashed when it comes to these issues. Blame the victim, get help for the poor person who’s accused because they’re going to have to live with this one bad decision for the rest of their lives because someone had the nerve to come forward about it.

  • Paul

    One of the rare times I’ll agree with this administration. Due process is sacred.

    • clay

      Due process isn’t threatened. DeVos is misrepresenting reality.

    • Ken M

      “If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be provided for you before any questioning if you wish.” Sound familiar?

      • trog

        Many of these cases do not involve police and judicial courts. The colleges and universities handle the situations as they see fit–for example, they can take the word of the alleged raped victim. That’s why there’s a huge problem.

        • clay

          No, that’s a false statement. Obama’s Letter ENDED colleges and university handling the situations as they saw fit, instead, giving them common standards. Of COURSE they can take word of the complainant the same as they take the word of the defendant, that’s how our system works.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            and you are content that someone is expelled on a balance of probability and has a RAPE accusation on their educational record forever?

          • clay

            More content than if we were to say that all civil cases are decided on preponderance of the evidence EXCEPT sexual assault, basically saying there can be ONLY criminal cases for sexual assault, but both criminal AND civil for everything else.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            Civil cases are held before a judge not a band of well-intentioned amateurs

          • clay

            As already civil court judges cannot determine housing or enrollment, so, therefore, they cannot guarantee equal access to education, only the schools, can. Eliminating the DoE’s Office of Civil Rights will not increase the training and oversight of those “well-intentioned amateurs”. Rescinding the Obama Letter will not divert this away from college administrations. If you want to improve the equity, okay, but DeVos’ actions, aren’t going to do that She’s taking two steps back.

    • trog

      I agree, Paul. Colleges often do away with due process in these cases, simply kicking the alleged-rapists out of school and potentially ruining their lives–without any real trial.

      I don’t trust DeVos at all, but the college “rape” issue is way out of control. For example, getting wasted and then regretting having sex isn’t the same a being raped. Unethical behavior isn’t always illegal behavior. But trying telling that to today’s colleges.

      In cases of rape, go to the police, not the university.

      • clay

        No, “simply kicking the alleged-rapists out of school” is a clear violation of the law, including Title IX and Obama’s Letter.

        These cases aren’t about rape; the schools are not conducting criminal investigations. These cases are about interference with educational access; the schools are required by law to conduct civil investigations.

        • trog

          But who gets to decide what entails a fair civil investigation? One would certainly hope that both sides get equal representation and all the decisions and inquiries would be available to involved parties. I’m not under the impression that is the case.

          I understand these cases are not criminal trials, but the outcomes–a person gets kicked out of school, based on the accusations of one person–can damage a person’s life.

          • clay

            It used to be the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Education, but DeVos just terminated that.

            And your impression is incorrect. I’m on my College’s Title IX committee– all parties have equal access, representation, and rights. Otherwise we’d be sued, and losing, multiple times a year.

            Yes, getting kicked out of school when a preponderance of the evidence shows one interfered with another student’s education can damage a person’s life. Just like being harassed, assaulted, or raped in an educational setting can interfere with one’s access to education and damage their life.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            There are enough claims going to suggest that that ideal isn’t strictly followed

          • clay

            Then that’s probably evidence that individual schools are failing to live up to the standards, not that the standards are imbalanced.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            There are quite a few of them which suggests an institutional failure.

            And should not such a serious accusation be dealt with through the courts: it can ruin lives with little chance of clearing a name without money

          • clay

            Okay, and what would the courts do? The courts don’t administer the schools– can’t determine housing or enrollment.
            What standard of proof would the courts use? The standard of evidence used in ALL other civil cases is the same one used by schools in Title IX cases.
            How much extra money does the complainant have?

          • Mihangel apYrs

            Sexual assault and rape are among the most serious crimes apart from murder. To be accused and expelled for such an accusation (and I’ve read of too many instances when anything like “due process” was ignored) is live-changing and sometimes destroying. It remains with one forever: only by suing can one get redress (needing money). The accuser of course, does not need money to make an “inhouse” accusation because s/he is totally supported by the powers that be, with guidance being that “accusation equals proof”.

            EITHER rape (et al) is a serious crime and should be so treated OR it is an administrative misdemeanor. It is never a civil case.

          • clay

            Those “many instances when anything like “due process” was ignored” were NOT following Obama’s Letter and were NOT following Title IX. Have you read the Letter? It’s still posted to the DoE website and it explicitly requires and protects due process on both sides.

            You do know that victims of crime are allowed to sue in civil court for damages, right? Why should that be disallowed for sexual harassment and assault? That means that rape cases can be BOTH criminal AND civil. And when dealing with residential schools and access to education, the only effective civil authority is the school.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            I’m afraid the “Obama’s letter wasn’t followed” excuse is cold comfort to those men who had their names blackened and careers and lives destroyed!

            In these cases, even if followiing dictat, a civil level of certainty imposes an irrevocable stain that people will recoil drom – not quite the same as (say) smoking in a prohibited place.

            Let us be clear – I do not defend rapists, but I do defend the right to due process: that is being sidelined

          • clay

            The right to due process is not being sidelined by the things DeVos is eliminating. She’s eliminating two protections of due process. Those students accused will no longer have access to the Office of Civil Rights. Those students accused will not longer have the Obama Letter that DEMANDS equal access to notification, evidence, counsel, and appeal.

            It does appear that you want to eliminate all civil suits (except for smoking in an enclosed work or living space).

          • Mihangel apYrs

            Hyperbole is not a useful tool.

          • clay

            Seriously, where did I use hyperbole?

          • Mihangel apYrs

            “It does appear that you want to eliminate all civil suits (except for smoking in an enclosed work or living space).”

            I used that as an example of what a college ought to have authority over. It was not exclusive, but it was to illustrate the qualitative difference between what a civil authority ought to manage and what should be dealt with within the criminal (or indeed civil) law process. It is not acceptable that even natural justice can be flouted so easily by those with an agenda. Note: this is not a personal criticism but an observation of the disparate application of whatever guidance the DoE has put out.

          • FAEN

            Schools, not all, but I would say a decent amount prefer to sweep it all under the carpet and not have the bad publicity.

            From my personal experience-a roommate threatened my life on my answering machine. His exact words were “I am going to slit your faggot throat.” The university did the minimum but then threatened to out me! Instead of protecting me I because the issue. I hope that shit has gotten better.

          • clay

            Generally, yeah, it has, in part due to Obama’s Letter, and earlier due to Clearly Act reporting. Frankly, schools are now required to do federal reporting that is still “optional” for local police forces to do.

          • FAEN

            That’s good to know.

          • LesbianTippingHabits

            There’s an easy way to decide what constitutes a “fair” civil rights investigation. Just ask the media.

      • Friday

        Most universities run their own university police.

    • Friday

      Then there should be more criminal prosecutions of rapists.

      • Paul

        Well, maybe the victim(s) should go to the police instead of to the college administration.

        • Friday

          The campus police *is* under the college administration, generally.

          • Paul

            I’m talking the “real” police.

          • Friday

            Where jurisdiction is involved, the University often counts as the town and ‘real police.’ University police generally are *real police.* Otherwise they’re campus security.

  • Jay Mills

    When will the tipping point come when the efforts to destroy our federal government from the inside and outside begin to weaken the foundational pillars? I think I hear a creaking noise.

    • LesbianTippingHabits

      Yes, and it all starts with [not] tipping generously for good service.

  • Ken M

    Can’t anything be done to dethrone this bitch? Every single thing she has proposed, or done, has been met with nothing but disstain and disagreement from every educational org in the country. Kick her lame(but rich) ass to the curb!

  • AJA

    Man, how many times is MI going to show up here today?!

    I commented on the Kid Rock thread, but he’s just a clown. DeVos is an actual danger to our country and our kids.

    Just in case you need a reminder, DeVos is an evangelical Christian who hates public schools, as she nor her children have ever stepped foot in one. She wants, more than anything, theocratic charter schools to take over this country; it’d be the perfect Republican shit storm: forcing Christ down kid’s throats and putting money in to their friends pockets all at the same time.

    Oh, and her brother owns a private army. So there’s that.

    • Oscarlating Wildely

      And she knows absolutely less than fuck all about education. Case in point: the joke of a confirmation hearing.

  • Irish856

    There have been plenty of men accused and kicked out of school etc, only to be exonerated. UVA frat, Duke Lacrosse team are two that come to mind. Many guys had their lives torn apart when they did nothing that they were accused of.
    It is a tough call, there are way too many assaults on campus (and everywhere. It needs to stop.

    • clay

      Duke Lacrosse team has nothing to do with this– that was a criminal case, not a Title IX civil case. The fact that they were exonerated would show that due process IS working.

      • Irish856

        Title IX is used as a ploy to get schools to do what the Feds want, or they lose funds.
        Men get accused of assault on college campuses all of the time. They are named, kicked out of school, humiliated and attacked. There needs to be a better way of protecting women and men also.
        Betsy D is a fool, but changes do need to made to protect all on campus more fairly and better.

        • clay

          If a school is following Title IX, men are NOT kicked out of school simply for being accused. If a school is following Obama’s Letter, men are NOT kicked out of school simply for being accused. Those schools that have pulled that shit have almost always based it on their own, local, student conduct policies and their own pre-Letter systems.

          • LesbianTippingHabits

            Lorena Bobbitt as Dean of Students, right?

      • LesbianTippingHabits


        The fact that Duke Lacrosse was eventually exonerated shows that the system IS broken.

        Only family wealth saved their lives from being totally ruined.

  • edrex

    xtianists really love them some sexual assault.

    • FormerMainer

      Please…the issue is not whether anyone wants to tolerate sexual assault. The disagreement is over process.

      • clay

        And, apparently, whether harassment interfering with educational access should be included in civil rights cases.

      • edrex

        a fair point. it is a non sequitur. and i stand behind it.

  • FormerMainer

    the problem of sexual assault will not be solved by denying males their basic rights.

    • clay

      Those basic rights are not being denied, otherwise it would be a violation of Title IX.

      • FormerMainer

        if only!

        • clay

          Then they can sue under Title IX, which they’re not because they don’t have a case. Title IX and Obama’s Letter do not grant rights to women, nor to alleged victims of assault or harassment. They grant equal rights to all.

          • FormerMainer

            Many have sued – and won – primarily on the grounds that their constitutional rights have been violated by the universities.

          • clay

            So, you’re saying that the system DeVos wants to get rid of IS working?

            Is that many in numbers relative to the number of reports?

          • FormerMainer

            No, the courts have, many times, deemed the system’s implementation to violate basic civil rights.

            Many is relative to the number of claims filed.

            What is it about the system that you want to preserve? The low standard for guilt? the lack of counsel rights? the lack of cross examination rights? the presumption of guilt?

          • clay

            “the low standard of guilt” is IDENTICAL to all other civil cases. It’s preponderance of the evidence.
            “the lack of counsel rights” doesn’t exist. If either party has access to counsel, BOTH have access to counsel. Obama’s Letter and Title IX both require that.
            “the presumption of guilt” doesn’t exist. Without a preponderance of the evidence, no civil action can legally take place.

            If you and DeVos are going to bitch about Obama’s Letter, know what it includes! Title IX REQUIRES EQUAL rights, it does NOT grant greater rights to the accuser, it does NOT imbalance right to counsel or cross-examination. You’re complaining about problems REDUCED by Obama’s letter. Your complaints are out of date.

          • FormerMainer

            “the low standard of guilt” is IDENTICAL to all other civil cases. It’s preponderance of the evidence.”

            – Exactly. That is the problem. Sexual assualt should not be treated as a civil matter. This isn’t a contract dispute.

            “”the lack of counsel rights” doesn’t exist. If either party has access to counsel, BOTH have access to counsel. Obama’s Letter and Title IX both require that.”

            – The letter only requires that the accused be allowed to engage counsel; not that the engagement results in any meaningful reliance upon counsel or that the counsel is granted meaningful access to information necessary to defend her client.

            “”the presumption of guilt” doesn’t exist. Without a preponderance of the evidence, no civil action can legally take place.”

            – We see it in countless instances, such as when the accused is banned from campus prior to a final determination.

            “If you and DeVos are going to bitch about Obama’s Letter, know what it includes! Title IX REQUIRES EQUAL rights, it does NOT grant greater rights to the accuser, it does NOT imbalance right to counsel or cross-examination. You’re complaining about problems REDUCED by Obama’s letter. Your complaints are out of date.”

            – I’m not sure where any of this is coming from as it has not been borne out in reality. You seem hostile to the idea of even improving the sexual assault investigation process on campus – that refusal is telling of your lack of concern for basic concepts of justice.

          • clay

            DeVos’s actions won’t do anything to improve sexual assault investigations. She is removing the Office of Civil Rights in the DoE so neither accusers NOR defendants can rely on them, and schools cannot get guidance from them. She is removing what guidelines do exist, going back to the wide variety of privatized systems that might, or might not, protect anyone.

            The Letter explicitly requires equal access to notifications, to evidence, to counsel, and to appeal– EQUAL. That was NOT the universal system prior to Obama. If DeVos gets rid of the Letter, she REDUCES equal access.

            Sexual assault should be BOTH criminal AND civilly actionable, otherwise people assaulted with cars or guns, can sue for damages, but people assaulted with fists and dicks cannot. It’s not an either/or. Presenting it as an either/or, and refusing the civil side eliminates civil protections.

          • FormerMainer

            I’m curious – why do you think schools should be the ones to investigate potential crimes?

            I hope you realize that the letter is not reality. You should focus more on what is happening rather than what the letter says – after all, it’s only a piece of paper.

            Sexual assault is both criminally and civilly actionable – the issue is whether it should also be actionable through a college administration process. And i think we need to start there – as above, why should colleges (rather than the police) investigate potential crimes and why should civil actions be conducted through college administration (rather than through the courts)?

            The only thing that would potentially be eliminated is to seek deliberation of a crime/civil matter by a college rather than by the police/courts.

          • clay

            The schools aren’t doing criminal investigations! The schools are investigating whether they are preventing interruptions to educational access. Why do schools do this? Because the schools are legally liable for not providing equal educational access and because it is only the schools that control enrollment and housing on campus.

            Eliminating the Letter won’t improve the situations you’re complaining about. It is likely to make things worse for those assaulted/harassed and would REDUCE protections for the accused. Eliminating the DoE Office of Civil Rights won’t protect (male) students’ civil rights.

          • FormerMainer

            “The schools aren’t doing criminal investigations!”

            – The schools are investigating incidents that are potential crimes. that is why this is so concerning.

            “The schools are investigating whether they are preventing interruptions to educational access.”

            – And the result of that investigation is the identification of an accused as a rapist or sexual assault perpetrator. The significance of the findings go well beyond educational access. In reality, no one is expelled for interrupting educational access – they are expelled for an act that carries enormous social stigma. They are burdened with that stigma even if there is a 49% chance that they are completely innocent.

            “Why do schools do this? Because the schools are legally liable for not providing equal educational access and because it is only the schools that control enrollment and housing on campus.”

            – And to do so, the schools should defer to criminal courts.

            “Eliminating the Letter won’t improve the situations you’re complaining about. It is likely to make things worse for those assaulted/harassed and would REDUCE protections for the accused.”

            – You have even less faith in schools looking at these matters than I. Complaints about assault are serious accusations with significant lifelong repurcussions for both the alleged victim and the alleged perpetrator. Hence, they should be dealt with in a manner of the highest standards. We have such a place – it’s called court.

            “Eliminating the DoE Office of Civil Rights won’t protect (male) students’ civil rights.”

            – if you believe that, what do you think is necessary to protect the rights of the accused?

          • Mihangel apYrs

            To sue needs money. So poor victims of false accusations can never clear themselves.

            That is not justice

          • clay

            To sue needs money. So poor accusers can’t protect themselves? That’s not justice.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            In these circumstances accusers have the full backing of the colleges to deal with the accused. An accusation is just that, and needs proper investigation; to much has been reported to suggest that that does not happen in some cases, and PC and other influences allow a “Star Chamber” to destroy a man.

            Do you believe that all those men are guilty?

          • clay

            The college investigate neither the accused nor the accuser if their following the guidelines– they investigate the events, not the people. And the Obama Letter explicitly requires, unlike earlier systems, that all parties get equal support.

            And frankly, I don’t give a shit about the sex and gender of the parties.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            I don’t think we’re going anywhere with this – you are rightly proud that the tribunals upon which you sit adhere to the guidance, I am pointing out those situations where they don’t and where there are bad procedures.

          • clay

            Which does not support DeVos’ elimination of guiding documents and the Office of Civil Rights.

            BTW, I don’t site on the tribunals, I oversee them.

          • Mihangel apYrs

            Misuse of these two instruments has discredited them – rightly or wrongly. I don’t know the best way forward, but these are soiled. Just saying “yah boo” to DeVos is not an effective response.

            I’m not sure what an “overeseer” would do in such cases, but your diligence and adherence to guidance is clear; my remarks were not intended as personal criticism

  • canoebum

    Secretary DeVos announces the Entitled White Frat Boy Defense Directive (to much cheering among entitled white frat boys).

  • coram nobis

    DeVos is also doing student borrowers no favors as well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/sep/06/us-student-debt-loans-navient-sallie-mae

    … In late August, DeVos’s office announced that it would stop sharing information about student loan servicer oversight with the federal consumer watchdog agency known as the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or CFPB.

    Earlier this year, as complaints grew, the CFPB sued Navient for allegedly misleading borrowers about the repayment options it is legally obligated to provide.

  • hdtex
  • Ginger Snap

    I wonder if she had been raped if she would look at this differently? Our entire country us a giant piece if shit just waiting to be flushed.

    • clay

      I don’t trust that she wouldn’t just internalize the assault.

  • northern_neighbour

    Evil KKKhrister KKKunt that this monstrous B.E.O.T.C.H. is, thrust upon Amerikkka like some Amway Rapist, out to FUCK the future away from every aspiring young life, #DEVOS/FAILEDSOUL #ETERNALDAMNATIONBEYOURS

  • Friday

    Pro-rapist anti-education science denier Christianist student loan fraudster the Republicans put in charge of ‘Education.’

    • clay

      [investor in nutritionally fraudulent school lunch services]
      one of my personal pet peeves.

    • andrew

      What’s you’re point? LOL.

  • pablo

    I don’t like DeVos but I agree with this. After the Obama Education Department’s “Dear Colleague” letter, all a woman with a cluster B personality disorder had to do was cry and point to get a guy expelled. No more chipping away at due process,

  • andrew

    Yep those Obama anti-rape guidelines are way too strict. On a Friday or Saturday night an intoxicated red blooded American boy has got to be cut some slack. Boys will be boys. By the way Betsy, what are you doing next weekend?

  • JCF

    “Because truly GODLY wimmenses wouldn’t be at ‘Satan’s School for Girls’ (aka colleges & universities) anyway!!!11!!”

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6ac7ac06f5a541b98f071de011dce7a6fa98db21b9dae582eda32b06d3cb6514.jpg

  • KnownDonorDad

    Plutocrat-theocrat hack sent to destroy public education, what did you expect?

  • coram nobis

    This may be on point.

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/usc/la-sp-devos-boermeester-20170907-story.html

    USC expelled Boermeester after a school investigation found he put his hands around the neck of his girlfriend, Zoe Katz, and pushed her into a wall. Katz said Title IX Office investigators ignored her assertion that Boermeester never abused her.

    “The young woman repeatedly assured campus officials she had not been abused nor had any misconduct occurred,” DeVos said. “But because of the failed system, university administrators told her they knew better.”