BRITAIN: Church Of England Demands End To Ex-Gay Torture, “This Has No Place In The Modern World”

The Guardian reports:

The Church of England has called on the government to ban conversion therapy and has condemned the practice, which aims to change sexual orientation, as unethical and potentially harmful.

At the end of an emotional debate in which two members of the C of E synod described their experiences as spiritual abuse, the church’s governing body overwhelmingly backed a motion saying the practice had “no place in the modern world”.

Proposing the motion, Jayne Ozanne – who underwent conversion therapy resulting in two breakdowns and two spells in hospital – said conversion therapy was “abuse from which vulnerable adults need protecting”.

It was “discredited by the government, the NHS, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of General Practitioners and many other senior health care bodies,” she said.

  • bambinoitaliano
  • Jeff Chang

    “Proposing the motion, Jayne Ozanne – who underwent conversion therapy resulting in two breakdowns and two spells in hospital – said conversion therapy was “abuse from which vulnerable adults need protecting”.”

    Adults can do whatever they want to themselves. Is the UK going to ban cigs next?

    • Todd20036

      These aren’t adults. They’re children being forced to do so

      • Jeff Chang

        “said conversion therapy was “abuse from which vulnerable ADULTS need protecting”.”

        Emphasis mine.

        The quote is from the article.

        • Steve Teeter

          Jeff, sometimes adults DO need protecting. For example, from a con man relying on someone’s ignorance and naivete to rip them off.

          Or is that what you call doing “whatever you want” with your money?

          • Jeff Chang

            Should smoking be banned?

          • stevenj

            Health costs:

            http://ash.org.uk/category/information-and-resources/fact-sheets/

            Smoking costs the National Health Service (NHS) in England approximately £2bn a year for treating diseases caused by smoking.

            This includes the costs of hospital admissions, GP consultations and prescriptions. The government also pays for sickness/invalidity benefits, widows’ pensions and other social security benefits for dependants.

            Expenditure on tobacco control provides good value for money: NICE estimates that for every £1 invested, £2.37 is saved on treating smoking-related disease and lost productivity.

            The cost of treating smoking related illnesses in the US is even higher.

          • Schlukitz

            A+ for trying, stevenj, but Jeff Chang never concerns himself with the facts.

            He just likes to instigate, provoke, play devil’s advocate and derail threads with his bs.

            All the more reason just to ignore him.

        • stevenj

          Did you read the whole article at the link?

          “More than two-thirds said they had chosen to do so because they believed their sexual orientation to be “sinful”. Just under three-quarters were under the age of 20 when they began conversion therapy.”

          Brainwashing is detrimental to both adults and children.

          • Jeff Chang

            Without an age breakdown that quote is meaningless.

            A 18-19 year old can join the military and smoke.

            Is an 19 year old Marine a child?

          • robindaybird

            yet a 21 year old can’t be trusted to drink, your argument is flawed.

          • Jeff Chang

            So smoking be banned?

          • robindaybird

            I think you lost the plot there.

          • Jeff Chang

            Well, this is the UK where the age of adulthood is 18.

          • stevenj

            The gay republican libertarian wormhole with him is very long.

          • Schlukitz

            Unfortunately, he never had a grasp of it to begin with. 😉

          • Robincho

            “Smoke, darling? I don’t care if you BURN!” — T. Bankhead

          • Schlukitz

            Not only is Jeff Chang’s argument flawed.

            He himself is flawed. LOL

          • stevenj

            In that case your argument is meaningless.

        • grada3784

          Is it wrong to protect the vulnerable?

    • KentDean

      Mr. Chang, I’m a mental health professional. I work only with adults. I have a practice license, so they’re supposed to be able to trust that I know what I’m doing. If I engage them in a type of therapy, they are putting themselves in a trust stance with me. If I betray that trust by engaging in quackery (which is what “conversion therapy” is), they may well not know they’re being exposed to quackery, a.k.a. malpractice. As you know, healthcare providers operate under the imperative, “first, do no harm.” That in itself makes it actionable if I do harm in promoting a discredited modality of therapy. I don’t get a free ethical or legal pass by asserting, “Let the buyer beware;” I alone am responsible if I hurt someone.

      • Jeff Chang

        So you have no issue with this being done by a priest?

        Just as long as it is not billed as a medical practice?

        • Schlukitz

          The “Master baiter” speaks.

          As always, putting words in the mouths of people that have yet to be spoken.

    • EdmondWherever

      That doesn’t mean that “therapy” can be conducted by unqualified charlatans in church basements. Real therapy should be a closely regulated medical procedure, and practicing fake medicine which has been condemned by every reputable medical organization on the planet should be illegal.

      Adults are free to tell themselves “I’m not gay”. They can do that “to themselves” if they want. But con men can’t pass themselves off as doctors in order to make a buck at the expense of others’ mental health.

      • Jeff Chang

        So you are opposed to alternative medicine and pratices for adults such as acupuncture?

        • djcoastermark

          So I guess you are opposed to banning DDT, lead paint, asbestos filled goods to name a few?

        • stevenj

          You need a lot of training and a license to practice acupuncture in Calif. In the US it varies from state to state. Equating religious brainwashing with acupuncture (a 5000+ year old discipline) is a red herring.

        • EdmondWherever

          So you are opposed to alternative medicine

          I’m opposed to alternative medicine being packaged without sufficient disclaimers identifying it as unapproved by the FDA, or having no evidentiary support. But there are limits to the kinds of poisons which can be put into over-the-counter products, just like there should be a limit to the poisons present in psychological analysis and treatment. If there were an alternative medicine which promised to change something about a person which all medical organizations say cannot be changed, and it was causing a rash of suicides, would you argue that it should stay on the shelves simply because adults should be free to do whatever they want to themselves?

          and pratices for adults such as acupuncture

          Same deal. Acupuncture appears to be relatively harmless. It is not leading people down paths to self-hatred. There have been many studies into the efficacy of acupuncture, and while they find little to no evidence of actual help from the process, medical review boards certainly aren’t joining together to condemn it as empirically harmful, which is what they are doing in the case of conversion therapy.

          There are times when it’s appropriate to protect people from themselves, lest some illegitimate practice and it’s destructive influences, become widespread.

      • Schlukitz

        Any responsible reply that you make to this troll will only result in his coming back with a baited question.

        Jeff Chang is a well-known troll around these parts.

        Treat him with the only thing that trolls like him cannot argue with.

        Ignoring them.

        • Jeff Chang

          I have a contrary opinion to yours.

          • Schlukitz

            Correction:

            You have a contrary opinion to everyone on this thread.

    • Schlukitz

      Now that you mention it, banning cigs in the UK (and elsewhere) is a wonderful idea…even if it only results in pissing you off, trollface!

      • Jeff Chang

        Do not smoke, but would love tonsee prohibition attempted again.

        • Schlukitz

          Faulty correlation. As usual.

          No one is forced to drink alcohol. That’s why prohibition failed.

          Smoking, on the other hand, does force others to breathe second-hand smoke which has been proven to be just as dangerous to health as smoking yourself.

    • CottonBlimp

      If emotionally stunted 19 year old children can’t be manipulated and extorted into self-harm by their psychologically abusive parents, are any of us truly free?

      • Jeff Chang

        So you should ask government permission before having intercourse?

        • CottonBlimp

          I think you should ask government permission before trying to make analogies.

    • Priya Lynn

      This is no different than banning quack cancer treatment therapies that are used to steal money from the vulnerable and desperate. Steve Jobs chose to pursue quack therapies for his pancreatic cancer and delayed getting conventional therapy until it was too late to help him.

      • Jeff Chang

        Alternative “treatments” to cancer are not banned. If a religious person sincerely believes god will cure their cancer are you going to forbid him from going to a prayer group that conveys such a message with prayer?

        • Priya Lynn

          Wrong. Alternative “treatments” to cancer ARE banned when they are fraudulent as is “exgay” torture. If a prayer group was charging money and promising a cure that would fall under fraud as well and could be banned.

  • Ernest Endevor

    An established church has its uses.

    • Schlukitz

      An established church has it abuses.

      There. I fixed it for you. 😉

    • pablo

      I’m an atheist married to a semi-practicing Episcopal priest. I attend church with him to support him. The church members in Alaska are really nice people who know we’re married-one of them did the service for us-and are very accepting and supportive of us. They also do a lot of volunteering in the community. I’d trade 10 atheists here for one of those Christians.
      The church in Florida is a bit of a different story. It’s mostly Caribbean, and they’re tolerant, but you can tell they’re straining to be.

      • Ernest Endevor

        I know. I’m glad you’ve had good experiences. We were married by a Unitarian. I’m not one of those to condemn Christians out of hand. However, by not having an established church we’ve opened ourselves up to religious entrepreneurship.

    • James

      It’s just a token gesture, and they have always opposed LGBT equality in the past. Also they are going through a rough patch at the moment (it has just emerged that the guy who was in charge of the church a few years ago was involved in covering up child abuse), so the timing seems a bit convenient.

      • Ernest Endevor

        I’m trying to cope with my shock at such info.

  • bkmn

    However I would advise against holding your breath waiting for the RCC to join them.

  • TrueWords
    • KCMC
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      • Mark McGovern

        Did you actually experience conversion therapy (hope you don’t mind me asking)? If so, how bad was it?

        • KCMC

          didn’t make it through 1st session. Family, ‘suggestion,’ when I came out to them. Was Focus-on-the-Family counselor in CO.
          Pretty depressed/alienated from family, it was actually helpful in that I got so angry at shit counselor was throwing that I left. And slowly, began to feel much better.
          Having been brought up in seriously churched family, I was offended that how I believed was dismissed, demeaned, etc. Counselor wasnt clinically trained and way too confrontative for anyone in vulnerable place.
          I was (pretty sheltered) 21 yr o. Younger folks need to be protected from it all.

          • Mark McGovern

            Wow, thanks for sharing. I could ask a thousand questions. It’s something that we talk a lot about but really know very little about (speaking for myself) without people opening up. I mean, you see the publicized cases, the groups at conversion camps etc.

    • Schlukitz

      Amen!

  • JohnMyroro

    C of E still considers LGBT to be second-class humans. See their policy on marriage.

    • JCF

      Yup. They’ve yet to catch-up to their Anglican offspring, Episcopalians, in the USA (and soon, in Scotland!), and Anglicans in Canada.

  • David Walker

    That place must be a bitch to clean.

    • gaymex1

      LOL Having just spent 3 hours vacuuming, I totally agree. It’s best left for the christians to suck up that dust.

      • djcoastermark

        It’s called sunday services for a reason. All that hot air blowing around does a great job of dusting the place out.

  • Bluto

    If someone built a throne room for a hundred pompous, despotic princes it would look like this. Oh, wait…

  • JWC

    about time READ up TEXAS

  • JT

    It’s time for these churches to make amends for the lives they’ve damaged and destroyed.

    • Danieruw

      “I still replay those words
      Only ten years old
      And hate is what I heard from that loving church
      And there’s no salvation on the road you’re taking
      And a kid like you ain’t worth saving”

      • Craig Howell

        A church like that ain’t worth saving.

    • Craig Howell

      “Amends” = “Reparations.”

  • Nic Peterson

    The recovering Catholic in me is happy that the C of E gets there first. The huge queen in me is trying to imagine that room without all of the aweful baroque bricabrac and the addition of a single disco ball.

  • TampaZeke

    Well, if we’re going to talk about things that have no place in a modern world…

    • Steve Smith

      But what to do with the buildings? Here in Europe there are so many, filled with amazing work, paintings, sculptures and art. Some have been around for over a thousand years. Turn them all into museums? Many are headed that way as their congregations decrease in number. As far as I can see, it wouldn’t take much to turn some of the U.S. megachurches into fast-food outlets, but some of the buildings we have here are real treasures.

      • Schlukitz

        Given that the buildings already belong to the people whose money erected them and not the “church”, these building and the treasure-trove of religious artifacts that they contain, it would seem only fitting that they all be turned into museums for the benefit of all to behold and appreciated, not just a limited few with special privileges and tax exemptions.

        May buildings have been repurposed in the past? Why should a church be any different?

        http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/10/world/neglected-churches-are-given-new-use-in-the-netherlands.html?mcubz=2

        • JCF

          You could say an ancient church is just a museum that people (some people—people like Yours Truly) pray in. If I’m ever back in the UK (in terms of my finances, unlikely!), I will continue to pray in Anglican churches. I expect secular museum-goers could (continue to) respect those other praying/ritual-celebrating (I really don’t like the word “worship”) museum-goers? This ought to be a win/win.

          • Schlukitz

            Hi JCF.

            Nice to hear from you. I haven’t been particularly active on these threads for awhile now that the summer months are here and I am trying to get some projects done around the property. Didn’t fully realize just how many things I had put on the back burner. Hee hee

            Hope all is well with you and yours. Take care now, 🙂

          • JCF

            And hello/hope you are well back at you, too, Schlukitz. [My health is currently heavily-influenced by the S~T~R~E~S~S I’m under, as the sole care-giver for my 97 yo father].

            Certainly don’t mean to you put you on the spot—Lord (!) knows there are plenty of other a/anti-theists here!—but I still would love to have some dialogue.

            18 year old me was just then claiming my childhood Episcopal faith, as an adult, when I visited the UK (favorite CofE cathedrals: York, Ely, Salisbury, Canterbury—and my personal fave, Lincoln!). Nevertheless, as you can tell, they made quite an impression on me (even if I never get back there). I want them to continue to be there. I don’t care if 99.9% of people who come there, don’t give a fig about the Christian (NOT Christianist!) faith that built them. I’m just comforted knowing that, as they’ve been there for 800 years, they will continue to be there (w/ their liturgical art more or less in situ) for others who are inspired by the Awe-of-It-All (and maybe a small space for a daily mass, pretty please?)

            Pax et Bonum, Schlu!

            Lincoln Cathedral
            http://cdn3.classical-music.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/623px_wide/Lincoln_625.jpg

          • Schlukitz

            Hi JCF. Thank you for your kind reply. I always enjoy hearing from you.

            I am also happy to hear that you are doing alright. I can imagine how stressful taking care of a 97 year old father must be. Bless you for having the stamina, fortitude and the willingness to do so.

            Relax. You’ve never put me on the spot, my friend. Despite any minor political/religious differences that we may have, our dialogue with each other has always courteous, considerate and respectful and that is why we have continued to be friends. 🙂

            Given how stressful life can be, it is not at all surprising that many find comfort in certain beliefs and rituals. Familiarity is a keynote and if being around things brings comfort to one, I see nothing inherently wrong with that. Like you, I would feel as badly about seeing my first home being bulldozed as seeing a cherished and beautiful landmark being demolished. Hell, with Americans fetish for bulldozing and re-building, most of Paris would have been demolished 100 years ago. LOL

            As you already know, I am not against religion per se. I am against ideologies and dogmas that vilify certain minority groups and obstruct the freedom, civil liberties and happiness of others and in so doing, create so much un-necessary misery, strife and suffering.

            I could care less if someone worships crystals, dolls, deities, old Gods like Thor and Zeus, or even a stone for that matter if that is their belief and it brings them comfort. I just don’t want to be under the constant pressure of having to give up my beliefs and adopt the beliefs of others and which seems to be a priority for so many of the believers. As the old farmers adage goes, you go to your church and I will go to mine. 😉

            All I have ever asked of people who work tirelessly, day and night, to minimize me as a gay man, is to respect my civil rights and allow me to have my own beliefs as well. 🙂

            All the best to you, dear friend.

            PS: Lovely photo of Lincoln Cathedral, by the way. Thanks for posting it.

      • Snarkaholic

        Museums and universities.

      • TampaZeke

        The truly historic ones could appropriately become myth museums. The ornate, but less historic ones, could become condos, business offices or night clubs (they make great night clubs) and the rest can be bulldozed the way other outdated, eyesore, dangerous buildings are.

    • Schlukitz

      Considering the fact that churches were the very ones who helped instigate and bring about such draconian behavior toward the LGBT community in the first place, an apology might also be in order.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5BdBfhliwM

    • Mark McGovern

      Unfortunately, churches and religion are not going anywhere soon. It is like the tide – the pews empty in Europe, and they fill in Africa, or elsewhere. I’ve always thought our best bet would be to reach out to them and enlist them, if possible, as allies. I sense we have a great opportunity with younger evangelicals, so long as we don’t purposefully alienate them. Many here would disagree with me.