For Second Time SCOTUS Refuses To Hear Appeal Of California’s Landmark 2012 Ban On Ex-Gay Torture

Bloomberg reports:

The U.S. Supreme Court let stand a California law that bans licensed therapists from working with children to change their sexual orientation from gay to straight, rejecting an appeal that said the measure violates religious rights.

The rebuff leaves intact a federal appeals court decision upholding California’s 2012 first-of-its-kind law. The measure prohibits the form of counseling known as “conversion therapy.”

The ban was challenged by three people, led by licensed therapist and minister Donald Welch, who said it interferes with their right to practice their religious beliefs.

The suit was filed by the anti-LGBT Pacific Justice Institute, which was last smacked down by SCOTUS in 2014 when they appealed California’s ban on the grounds that it restricts free speech. SCOTUS has also refused to hear an appeal of New Jersey’s ban.

  • The_Wretched

    Why didn’t Gorsuch want this one?

    • Skeptical_Inquirer

      Maybe he’s lying low for now as to keep from being swept up in any potential Trump impeachment and the resulting call for every and all things connected to Trump being swept out.

    • safari

      The pure answer is I’d like to think the court is waiting for there to be a conflict within the appellate.

    • another_steve

      Is there concrete evidence in his record that he’s a dyed-in-the-wool theofascist — à la Clarence Thomas and his colleague in hell, Antonin Scalia?

      • The_Wretched

        Yes. He all but wrote the HL decision (as a dissent on the appellate tier). That means he’s an agent of the Becket Fund for Religious Hegemony.

        • KnownDonorDad

          Maybe he’s seen the writing on the wall and is keeping his powder dry for another fight?

    • Gorsuch had no say in the matter – the case was submitted for revue long before he was nominated, and only those justices who are seated at the time of submission have a vote on whether to hear a case or not.

  • Paula

    Hey haterz 🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻😂😂😂😂😂

  • Lazycrockett

    Good News.

  • Todd20036

    Good. Parents’ wishes are valuable, but children aren’t property. You don’t get to kill, injure, torture, or scar them to fit your own needs.

    • Tawreos

      Sadly, in too many places you still can as long as you a doing it for Jesus.

      • bkmn

        Or for the profit of the supposed “practitioner”.

      • The_Wretched

        In Iowa: 726.6(d) says in part

        d. Willfully deprives a child or minor of necessary food, clothing, shelter, health care or supervision appropriate to the child or minor’s age, when the person is reasonably able to make the necessary provisions and which deprivation substantially harms the child or minor’s physical, mental or emotional health. For purposes of this paragraph, the failure to provide specific medical treatment shall not for that reason alone be considered willful deprivation of health care if the person can show that such treatment would conflict with the tenets and practice of a recognized religious denomination of which the person is an adherent or member.

        In other words, so long as it’s religious, you can deny medical care to your child. 17 States allow religious exemptions to child endangerment law up to and including death.

        • Tawreos

          Sadly, it is always the kid that pays the highest price for their parents delusions.

          • Maryrmann

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          • Shy Guy

            And then the parents go on TV saying “Well, God called little Timmy up to heaven. It was his time. Who are we to question His will? With His grace we’ll get through it.” or other such nonsense proving they accept no responsibility for their reprehensible actions.

        • Xiao Ai: The Social Gadfly

          And people wonder why I trash religion.

      • james1200

        And it works, too! Just let Jesus fill you up with his hard, throbbing love. And I don’t mean Jesus, your hot, straight, but a little confused neighbor boy originally from Mexico City.

        https://media.tenor.co/images/caf8fb7aedbf686fce3fd9730568018b/tenor.gif
        http://straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/tumblr_newqg7IiBk1rj8afuo1_r1_500.gif

        • RickCabral

          Not even just a little bit?

          • james1200

            I mean, you’re not a monk (are you?) A little bit is ok; just ask for forgiveness and when you do it again, ask for forgiveness again.

        • yes b’y

          i loves women women women.

        • Todd20036

          That outfit is a straight man’s idea of what a gay man is supposed to look like.

          Or a gay man who has no idea what a gay man is supposed to look like.

    • The Milkman

      Exactly. Your religious rights end at the tip of your nose. When it starts to involve other people, including your own children, you don’t have quite the same autonomy.

      Of course, this is what this issue is all about. It ain’t about cakes or banquet halls or “therapists”. It’s about where one person’s religious rights end, and another person’s human and civil rights begin.

      • Gustav2

        Religious orgs can still offer the torture in California, only licensed therapists, etc. cannot.

        It really means they can’t get paid via the parents insurance, thus making it a hellava lot less profitable.

        • Boreal

          And the insurance is the goose that laid the golden egg for these grifters.

        • If adults want to put themselves through this masochistic exercise then that is their right. I think that’s fucked up, but I think a lot of things people do are fucked up. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to do them. But children are another matter.

        • The Milkman

          And that’s really what it’s all been about, hasn’t it? Profit.
          Sigh.

    • Ninja0980

      Yup, your rights end when your fist meets my face.

  • bambinoitaliano
    • Todd20036

      I’d PAY to hear SpongeBob say that!

      • Xiao Ai: The Social Gadfly

        Nah, it’s gotta be Patrick.

  • Tawreos

    I wonder how many appeals there will be before they give it up?

  • JWC

    Hear hear You Friggin nut jobs do enuff damage to you gay children Novel approach why can;t you just love and support them like you are sipposed to

    • Jon Doh

      They should just cut to the chase. If I can’t suck a dick, nobody can.

  • Rex

    Um, wonder what the Evangelical’s Dream President thinks about this.

  • bkmn

    Government has the right to prohibit torture of children – whodathunk?

  • Rex

    Executive Order to allow the torture of children in 3…2…1…

  • Lazycrockett
  • Boreal
  • Gustav2
  • Ninja0980

    Good news but I have to wonder if it’s because they are biding their time or not until a far right hack can replace Breyer, Ginsburg or Kennedy.

    • StillALiberal

      Yep – My first thought as well.

  • Sam_Handwich

    o/t

    Bill Shine is gone from Fox.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C-wwZAhXcAEt9xV.jpg

    • Gustav2

      Oh, a woman!

      Who will not last long.

      • safari

        I don’t know. The network is being purged of the old guard.

        • Gustav2

          Woman do not last long in any 20th Century/Fox business.

    • Sam_Handwich
      • safari

        The Ailes spawnlings wouldn’t support him.

      • Skeptical_Inquirer

        Let him be next!

    • Treant

      My heart just bleeds.

      Well, it would if that news bothered me.

      Maybe.

      Oh, who am I kidding, it’s another sign that Rupert is losing control and the kids–not quite so far right and seeing the demographics changes more clearly–are taking over.

      • safari

        The average age of a prime-time fox news viewer is 68.

        • Treant

          I’d actually be surprised if MSNBC’s were all that much lower, depending on where you look. 🙂

          • safari

            I think they’re like 60 or 62.

    • pj

      what a shame

  • Ross

    It is in the Bible that a teenager which curses his/her parents can stoned to death (by the parents).

    This, too, is illegal. Funny though that minister Donald Welch isn’t advocating otherwise. I guess his demand for religious freedom is only specific to denying the LGBT community their freedoms.

  • Skokieguy [Larry]

    How many religious people would there be if there was a ban and you couldn’t expose or introduce people to religion until they were 18 (or perhaps 21)? I think we all know who really indoctrinates children.

    • Ninja0980

      Next to none.

      • Treant

        Probably more than that. Some percentage of people will embrace the ability to blame a lower power for their problems and give up any responsibility, just as some move toward religion later in life when they feel they need some sort of forgiveness for all the things they shouldn’t’ve done in the first place.

        But it’d be less than it is today, and that’d be all to the good…

        • it would be like beer. everyone would want to know if it was for them, and some would learn to take in too much. forbidding things always increases their appeal to certain groups. i say just give them a good critical education, including the history of religions, emphasis on plural.

          • m_lp_ql_m

            As my daughter was growing up, various relatives and friends of hers would invite her to attend their particular brand of church. I gladly permitted her, with the understanding that she attend ALL such invitations, including, of course, my own indoctrination of atheistic world views, AND, most importantly, that she will always be free to decide on her own. That worked out quite well.

        • WitlessProtection

          Reminds me of that old joke: Why do old people read the Bible? They are studying for their finals.

          • 2guysnamedjoe

            Or like W.C. Fields, looking for loopholes.

          • Darcyttowe

            My last paycheck was $22500 for working 12 hours a week online.Start earning $97/hour by working online from your home for few hours each day with GOOGLE… Get regular payments on weekly basis… All you need is a computer, internet connection and a litte free time… Read more here
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    • The_Wretched

      Like tobacco, few people convert in their majority.

    • Dejerrity Mycron

      Amen to that.

    • They’re already doing this in China’s Xinjiang province to prevent the spread of Islam. You can’t enter a mosque until you’re 18 and the government mounts cameras over the doors to ensure it’s enforced.

      Would be totally unconstitutional in the US though.

      • Skokieguy [Larry]

        Wow, did not know that. Its only Islam they limit this way?

        • There’s no age restriction that I’m aware of for other religions, though churches likewise have cameras.

          The Chinese government directly controls Christian religious institutions though, so they’d feel there’s less of a need for age restrictions, I’d imagine.

          Interestingly, in looking for the answer, I found that Muslim-majority Tajikistan also imposes an age 18 restriction on mosques with enforcement cameras.

          • Skokieguy [Larry]

            Fascinating and disturbing stuff. Thank you.

  • safari
    • Treant

      …if signed by the crazy cheeto.

      • safari

        It was done with a number of compromises and keeps things much as they are now.

        So, you are right. I should expect a veto.

        • Treant

          Maybe. I’m willing to bet that King Cheeto doesn’t understand the issues at all, and can be moved to sign it by trumpeting it as a “great compromise by a wonderful leader.” Then we can laugh at him after we dupe him.

        • Skeptical_Inquirer

          Maybe Javanka and basically most of the GOP congress members can convince him that now is not the time to shut down the government as it’ll make his poll numbers worse.

      • ColdCountry

        Could it be???

      • Ben in Oakland
    • Hank
    • The_Wretched

      Wow, the dems really did win a ton of points in the budget. Kudos DEMS! I know I’ve been looking for signs that they are doing something and the budget wins count!

      • Gustav2

        Why do you enjoy seeing Teavangelicals cry?

        • The_Wretched

          I’m a sadist in my private time.

          • Gustav2

            Eight ways Trump got rolled in his first budget negotiation

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2017/05/01/daily-202-eight-ways-trump-got-rolled-in-his-first-budget-negotiation/590687f2e9b69b3a72331f09/?utm_term=.26d19c76d607&wpisrc=nl_most-draw7&wpmm=1

            1. There are explicit restrictions to block the border wall.
            2. Non-defense domestic spending will go up, despite the Trump team’s insistence he wouldn’t let that happen.
            3. Barack Obama’s cancer moonshot is generously funded.
            4. Trump fought to cut the Environmental Protection Agency by a third. The final deal trims its budget by just 1 percent, with no staff cuts
            5. He didn’t defund Planned Parenthood.
            6. The president got less than half as much for the military as he said was necessary.
            7. Democrats say they forced Republicans to withdraw more than 160 riders. On the other side of the ledger, this budget blocks the Justice Department from restricting the dispensing of medical marijuana in states where it has been legalized.
            8. To keep negotiations moving, the White House already agreed last week to continue paying Obamacare subsidies.

          • Xiao Ai: The Social Gadfly

            You should go public.

          • The_Wretched

            I try to avoid scaring the vanilla.

          • Todd20036

            We should compare notes!

          • The_Wretched

            I get compliments on creativity and on my flogging. My rope skills are effective and proper form rather than pretty. I do a number of edge play things too but this isn’t the place to list them.

          • So where’s this place that you list them? A friend wants to know.

          • The_Wretched

            Fetlife, I’m not listing my fetname here though.

    • OdieDenCO

      I love the smell of sweet leaf in the afternoon!

      yeah!!!

      • Hank

        Why wait until the afternoon??? 😜

        • Bad Tom

          Wake -n- Bake.

    • KnownDonorDad

      I’m not a fan of recreational pot use, but I’ll take the Schadenfreude.

      • Xiao Ai: The Social Gadfly

        Me either. Just call it medicinal. It’ll take the stigma away. 😉

  • Hank

    States Rights, States Rights…. /s

  • Lazycrockett

    Whoever this Shine guy over at Faux is, he got fired today.

    • Treant

      You could say that Shine’s light was extinguished this morning…

      • Lazycrockett

        Well he got his own thread so he must be someone something.

        • Treant

          Roger Ailes’ bumper, apparently.

    • Gustav2

      He was Ailes number 2 and co-president.
      teehee

      There is no way he didn’t know what was going on for 30 years.

    • safari

      The Shining.

      • CB

        Nice Shin’ dig.

  • ha ha ha ha. you suck, pacific rimmers. snort. what is that, like 0-38 for them?

    • KnownDonorDad

      Similar to the Liberty Council or ADF’s record, I imagine….

  • Xuuths

    But tRUMP has been saying Gorsuch was going to keep voting tRUMP’s way. It’s almost like tRUMP is an idiot and lying about this . . . never mind.

  • Natty Enquirer

    You don’t have to be licensed to call yourself a “psychotherapist” in California. But if you do have a license, you have to follow the rules, which forbid quackery.

  • DisT

    The title should be “SCOTUS Refuses To Hear Appeal Of California’s Landmark 2012 Ban On Ex-Gay Torture of Children.”
    Ex-gay torture of adults is still legal.

    • Mike_in_the_Tundra

      They are choosing it for themselves. The children have no choice.

      • KnownDonorDad

        Generally speaking, if you’re of age you can make your own bad decisions. It makes me wonder, though, if it could be prohibited in the same way as illicit drug use or suicide….

  • Ben in Oakland

    doctor Don Welch? DOctor? As in witch doctor, or as in playing doctor?

  • Michael

    When your brand of religion is proven to make kids kills themselves then you honestly deserve to burn in Hell.

  • The only way SCOTUS can rule against this law would be to rule that the state has no ability to ban medical practices that are outright quackery, which this is. I suppose there is a libertarian argument to be made, but I don’t think that kind of argument is going to appeal to any of the current justices. Regulation of medicine and therapy is seen by almost everyone but the most fringe of whack jobs as a public good that we need. So, no they aren’t going to hear it because I don’t think they even want to sit through the ridiculous arguments that would be made against the law.

  • coram nobis

    If it was this case from last fall, the 9th Circuit ruling will be binding in those states, and can be persuasive elsewhere. It’s worthwhile reading, esp. where religious plaintiffs try and stretch their freedom of religion past normal precedent. SCOTUS (docket No. 16-845 Donald Welch, et al. v. Edmund G. Brown, Jr.) simply didn’t grant cert., which suggests they couldn’t find four justices sufficiently interested in this.

    Here is the 9th Circuit ruling, undisturbed by SCOTUS:

    http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca9/15-16598/15-16598-2016-08-23.html

    Also, the 9th Circuit ruling addressed the minors in question as patients in a counselor-client relationship. If so, then it’s not a religious one, and if the plaintiffs were trying to pass their orientation-change off as therapeutic (i.e., quackery) then the state had the power to regulate it under, say, the Cal. Business & Professions Code as such. (see, e.g., p. 6 et seq of the ruling).

  • thom

    Great news!

  • Tor

    But religious unlicenced “therapists” (ministers, deacons, priests) are not affected. That’s the problem.

  • Mike Knife

    THERE IS A GAY GOD!
    Many psychotherapist are anti-gay or anti-LGBTQ and still treat LGBTQ people like they are sick people. Many of these anti-gay psychotherapist are Christians and Muslims. They hide the fact that they still think LGBTQ people are sick. They are in the closet, the psycho closet. They secretly treat LGBTQ people as if they are sick and a lot of LGBTQ people are not aware of this truth. Also for example the Christian religion still sends their children to these psychotherapist to be put on drugs to stop them from being LGBTQ, they make up some condition they have to get around the fact they are treating them for being gay because it is now against the law in some places. Government and law enforcement is in on their game to secretly treat all LGBTQ people as if they are mentally ill because they are LGBTQ. Don’t be fooled because they are tricking you into thinking you are mentally ill but they are really treating you for being LGBTQ. I know because they did it to me. .