Fourth Circuit Court Rejects Rehearing Of Case That Granted Bathroom Rights To Transgender Student

Big news via the ACLU:

The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit will not rehear the case of a Gloucester County transgender high school student suing his school board over discriminatory bathroom policies.

The court today denied the Gloucester County School Board’s request for an en banc review of an April decision which held that Title IX protects the rights of transgender students to use school restrooms consistent with their gender identity.

“Now that the Fourth Circuit’s decision is final, I hope my school board will finally do the right thing and let me go back to using the boys’ restroom again,” said Gavin Grimm, the high school junior who is the plaintiff in the case. “Transgender kids should not have to sue their own school boards just for the ability to use the same restrooms as everyone else.”

In an en banc review, cases are reconsidered by every active judge, of which there are 15 in the Fourth Circuit. In April, a three-judge panel ruled two-to-one in favor of Mr. Grimm in his challenge to Gloucester High School’s discriminatory restroom policy that segregates transgender students from their peers by requiring them to use “alternative, private” facilities. In order to hear an en banc review, a majority of the judges must vote to do so; however, none of the judges in this case requested a vote, according to the court order denying the request.

The April ruling marked the first time a federal appeals court has determined Title IX protects the rights of transgender students to use sex-segregated facilities that are consistent with their gender identity. The Fourth Circuit remanded the case for the district court to reevaluate Gavin’s request for a preliminary injunction under the proper legal standard.

North Carolina falls under the jurisdiction of the Fourth Circuit. SCOTUS, here we come.

  • Xuuths

    The NC idiots (I’m looking at you, governor) will try to ignore this.


    Those North Carolina bigots are just gonna piss all over themselves reading this decision.

    • AtticusP


      • another_steve

        ^^That’s my husband.

        I spend half my day in the bathroom, cleaning up.

        • Gene

          try a trick at home that made cleaning up much easier….have a seat 🙂

          • another_steve

            Not a bad idea. I might try it.

            Men are pigs, don’t you find? All of them.

          • Gene


            that said, my mom had many bouts of agressive melanoma. the cleaning lady came in on Thursdays, and moms hands BLEED if she mopped, cleaned to much. So, I did it. I was like…11, and the Dr. named Dr. Hall, told me “if you dont take care of her hands…it could be very bad. I hate to say this to a young man your age ((young man…11!)) but its true.
            Sooo…I learned to clean. to dust..and I figured out pretty damn quick that my lack of….aim…was 99% of why the bathroom stank. So, I just learned to sit down, and NOT have to mop afterwards! lol

          • another_steve

            Forget about “aim.” At our ages, let’s just be glad our dicks still work.

          • Todd20036

            Work? Hell. I’m grateful my Dick is still attached!!

          • TJ

            Your victims aren’t.

          • Todd20036

            I don’t have victims. You’re a troll. Reported.

          • Todd20036

            How does one report a fuck like this to Disqus anyway? Instead of just flagging it?

          • Traxley Launderette

            I just joined you in flagging. If more than a few flag a post, it draws attention.

          • guest

            What do you call people who you have bragged about talking them into no condom sex because of your perceived better pleasure, and then further bragged that you have lied when they ask you your status because you do not like the question? What do you call people whom you have personally decided to remove any chance of their having an informed consent? What do you call people where you try to put all responsibility on only them, and excuse any responsibility you have to another human beings? all of this you have freely admitted to and bragged about on this site.

            Victims would be the most accurate word here,,.YOUR victims.

          • another_steve

            When dealing with mentally competent adults, guest, the notion of “informed consent” when it comes to consensual sex is bullshit. It’s a lingering remnant of the body and sex shame taught us largely by institutional religion.

            Anyone who believes and trusts 100 percent in his sex partner’s allegation of HIV status is not mentally competent. He or she needs therapy and reality counseling.

            Stop promulgating guilt.

            LGBT people should know better than to do that.

          • abel

            Yeah, if they DO!

          • Adam King

            But my prostate prefers I sit. And take my time.

          • another_steve

            Hear ya.

            Mine keeps me up at night with the “frequent nighttime urination” thingy. I tried the meds but as you may know, they sometimes have unfortunate side effects. They did for me.

            So I’m up every night, 5 or 6 times, to pee. Even when I restrict my after-dinner fluid intake.

            Like my mama used to say, Adam, “Growin’ old ain’t for cowards.” 😉

          • Salton

            Wait until you’re my age and you’d be lucky if you can find it. I was born in 1924 for those mathematically oriented!

          • another_steve

            Beautiful, Salton. Like you, I have longevity in my genes too. Both my parents lived into their 80s — during an era when that was very old indeed. My beloved aunt passed on two years ago at age 98.

            Long may you live and prosper. 😉

          • Salton

            Thank you Another Steve. Same to you!

          • Ginger Snap

            I grew up in a house of six men and two women and my mother had us we trained to not piss everywhere and the seat and lid always down. My Mom grew up in a military household with a live in housekeeper and that’s how our house was run like the military. Everything had a time and a place. I have fond memories of leaving shoes or jackets lying around and they would be scooped up in put in the waste bin. It wasn’t a big deal when you went looking for them as long as it trash pickup day.

          • Ginger Snap

            That’s what makes them so attractive.

          • Adam King

            I live alone, and I live with a pig.

          • anne marie in philly

            spouse has ALWAYS sat to pee, and we have been married 25 years. he said it’s just easier.

          • another_steve

            Good man you got there, anne marie. Most men will not deign to lower their pants to pee.

            Too “ladylike.”

          • anne marie in philly

            when ya gotta pee, ya gotta pee. doesn’t matter how ya do it.

          • BobSF_94117

            Makes reading a lot easier.

          • anne marie in philly

            yeah, that too. wouldn’t want a fave book getting splashed! 🙂

          • Tinajsmyth2

            “my room mate Mary Is getting paid on the internet $98/hr”…..!gd140ur

            two days ago grey McLaren. P1 I bought after earning 18,512 was my previous month’s payout..just a little over.17k Dollars Last month..3-5 hours job a day…with weekly’s realy the simplest. job I have ever Do.. I Joined This 7 months. ago. and now making over hourly. 87 Dollars…Learn. More right Here !gd140u:➽:➽:.➽.➽.➽.➽ http://GlobalSuperJobsReportsEmploymentsProfitableGetPay$98Hour…. .★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★★::::::!gd140u….,……ca

          • BobSF_94117

            I read that to mean invite a trick over to do the cleaning while you sit and watch…

        • Paula

          Well, you know, guys are happy as long as they hit something. 😉

          • BearEyes

            but target practice is fun!

          • Ginger Snap

            It’s odd how men have perfect aim with a weapon like a gun(just generalising) but a cock they have had their who life to practice with still can’t get it in the bowl.

          • Adam King

            There’s spraying, there’s splashing…you have no idea.

          • Ginger Snap

            Oh darling I do have an idea. Try pulling it out with high heels, a corset, a Tucker and panty hose on and I still manage to be a clean pisser.
            p.s. I haven’t had to untuck to piss in years.

          • Adam King

            I bow to your remarkable artistry. I can barely manage to operate a zipper.

          • Ginger Snap

            Time for elastic waist clothing? LOL. I have no issues cleaning up after a man or men that have been in my house, it’s what I’m made for cleaning. I think the piss issue for all men unconsciously is they get sidetracked by the fact they have a cock in hand and they get all cock rocked in the head and their pissing is not what they are thinking about.

    • Gene

      I rather dread tst and the other anti trans internalized homophobia brigade reactions….but I LOVE reading this good news.

      perhaps the SCOTUS will take it…but, with a tie, I doubt it.
      one more brick in the Cathedral of reasons we need to ensure Clinton wins in Nov!

    • Gerry Fisher

      “Decisions? What decisions?!” (They certainly seem unaware of Rover v. Evans.)

    • JT

      This will be known as the “Let them make peepee” decision.

    • Todd20036

      So is that troll, tst

    • Ginger Snap

      Piss Pigs may want to head on over to NC to get some footage for XTube, lol.


        Off the record, I am an afficiando of XTube. Strictly off the record.

        • Ginger Snap

          XTube is my favorite tube site and that is on the record.

  • Get Real

    North Carolina and Mississippi, met your upcoming fate.

  • Michael Smith

    Well they could still appeal to SCOTUS, but Scalia is still dead.

    • MattM

      But his stench lingers.

      • Ginger Snap

        Like piss drying on the floor.

        • MattM

          At least pee is sterile.

    • unsavedheathen

      This made me smile!

    • Let’s hope the idiots keep fighting!
      We’ve gained important human rights just that way. 😀
      Cmon bullies! Fight until we win!

  • MattM

    Dear Gov. McCrory:


    The Fourth Circuit Court.

    • JT

      Are they available for demos?

  • Sam_Handwich
    • FredDorner

      Yeah, Niemeyer is the one who got it totally wrong on the issue of marriage equality. His opinion was odious and seemed to be issued from the first half of the 19th century.

      • TheSeer

        I listened it live. He was constantly repeating: “It is not equal, it is not equal…”. Ted Olson just said: “It is equal. If you read Romer decision, and Lawrence decision, and Windsor decision, you cannot reach any other conclusion”. Niemeyer was agitated and upset.

  • Sam_Handwich

    there will be a petition to SCOTUS, but i do not believe there is disagreement among the circuit courts at this point. I think 3 or 4 have already upheld the administration’s take on the law. (not on specific merits of the cases, but in deference to the broader issue of executive branch interpretation) so a cert grant may be contingent upon the pending 5th circuit case, which could take us into next year anyway.

    anyone who knows better, please correct me

    • FredDorner

      There’s an adverse ruling from 2009 in the 9th Circuit COA, but I think that’s it as far as appeals court rulings.

    • BobSF_94117

      I think there’s one on its way to the federal courts in IL. ???

    • JustSayin’

      Sam, it is a mistaken notion that there has to be a circuit split for a case to reach SCOTUS. It is a convention not a legal requirement.

      As an interesting point, last week Roberts said in a speech and interview he was giving, that he and the majority of the court preferred concesus decisions and that the lose of Scalia had not significantly changed the statistics of the outcomes. Of the 11 cases decided so far six were full consensus. Three more were consensus with different justices having different reqsonings to agree, 1 was just Thomas with his usual doouchbaggery while the othe justices affirmed, and one had six nustices agreeing and two dissenting.

  • bkmn

    Suck it haterz!

  • 2patricius2

    Good! Will this be another decision by the SCOTUS written by Justice Kennedy – extending the rights protecting LGB citizens to T citizens as well?

    • FredDorner

      I doubt the court would bother hearing this before a new justice is confirmed, so any appeal would be bumped at least to Spring 2017.

  • Taleisin


    • Princess Lardass


  • anne marie in philly

    suh-WEET! everybody gotta pee!

  • kaydenpat


  • ceeenbee

    Did the Gloucester County School Board hire bri brown to lead the fight. This resounding defeat has the stench of his loser advocacy all over it.

    • Homo Erectus

      Musta been Mat Staver.

  • ColoMtnWoman

    Darn, it’s so hard to find enough bigoted judges these days to keep up with the needs of the persecuted evangelicals….

  • Cuberly

    OT: Holy shit, the supposed third party savior Bill Kristol hyped over the weekend has done work for the ADF. Ugh!

    • billbear1961

      Well, the miserable fuck IS a right-wing LIAR.

      “Freedom” to these thugs ALWAYS means the freedom to persecute and abuse those they have decided are beings INFERIOR to themselves.

      • Cuberly

        Glanced through some of his articles sited in a few other posts, WOW is he a talibanjelical nutbag…sheesh! He sounds almost Ted Cruz style crazy.

        • billbear1961

          Oh, the LARD is with them, Cuberly, and therefore their power is UNLIMITED.

          Christ, how I fucking HATE these two-faced SAVAGES, the fanged servants of the Almighty Slaughterer in the Sky.

        • billbear1961

          They can ram their depraved hocus-pocus UP their ugly ASSES.

          • Cuberly

            “Depraved Hocus-Pocus” sounds like a great name for a heavy metal band.

          • billbear1961

            If only it were limited to THAT!

          • Cuberly

            True 🙁

    • robindaybird

      That means he’s competition for Trump so… right-wing spoiler?

      • Cuberly

        Yep, supposed “conservative” bona-fides, as in FAR-right bona-fides.

        • JustSayin’

          That is actually good for us, it splits off an element of the GOPTrumpanzee shit show reducing the likely R voting numbers.

          • Cuberly

            Pulls the neo-con and more hard-line evangelicals so, yep. Whatever it takes to get them to lose.

            My initial reaction was, shit….they never learn do they.

      • Reality.Bites

        He’s no competition for anyone. To succeed as a third-party candidate you have to be a BIG name, or become one. This guy couldn’t get 1% of the vote.

    • Friday

      Probably not a problem, …some third party type splitting off some Fundies in the general election’s actually about ideal for us.

      • Cuberly

        It was more a reaction in seeing the ADF, I understand, this is a good thing.

        Interesting side note: The wife of Kristol’s pick is Nancy French, Sarah & Bristol’s ghost writer. She had stopped writing for Sarah and Bristol shortly after Sarah threw her support behind Drumpf.

        Oh to be a fly on the wall when that long grifting relationship came to an end. It also explains Sarah’s slip into even worse verbal saladry over the past few months.

        • Adam King

          That, and the home-brew.

          • Cuberly

            Meth with an alaska hooch chaser?

          • Adam King

            And a dash of bile.

        • wayne

          I wish I could nominate “verbal saladry” as a new addition to the OED.

    • Reality.Bites

      Well then we have nothing to worry about.

    • When I saw the headline that Kristol’s choice was a National Review writer I opened the article hoping to see that Maggie Srivastav would be our next president. Alas, David French — someone even less well known than Mr. Srivastav.

      • Cuberly

        They really should check Maggie’s crawl space cuz something just ain’t right.

        • Sweet Jeziz! Maggie’s “crawl space.” I believe we’ll have to wait for a new X-Men character to fill that heroic slot.

  • billbear1961
  • djcoastermark

    Gavin is one brave young man. Many other people wouln’t have the guts to do this.

    • FredDorner

      He’s very well spoken too, quite a smart kid.

      • Johnny Wyeknot

        Certainly better poster person than Cait.

        • FredDorner

          Seriously, that kid should go into the law or some other kind of advocacy work. He’s very articulate and he seems unflappable.

    • Or the balls

  • billbear1961

    “SCOTUS, here we come.”

    I was under the impression, from what I had read VERY recently on THIS site, that SCOTUS had already said NO to an appeal of this case!

    Is there never an END to these interminable CASES?!

    • BearEyes

      the xtianists have dug in their heels and will not budge one inch. We will need to fight them tooth and nail at least until a younger or more sane generation outnumbers the extremists/terrorists.

    • lizdhm

      They said no to the appeal of an essentially identical case in Virginia.

      • billbear1961

        But this IS that case in Virginia, lizdhm.

        • lizdhm

          Ahhh, ok yeah my bad. I was thinking of the initial rejection of the appeal by the 3 judge panel.

  • Hank
  • BearEyes

    “none of the judges in this case requested a vote,”
    very reassuring

    • FredDorner

      Niemeyer said he would have voted for an en banc hearing but he knew that was futile and he hopes the school district appeals to SCOTUS. I suspect he’ll be disappointed by the outcome.

      • billbear1961

        If that exponent of sneering hatred is disappointed, JUSTICE has met with HONOUR.

        • Jim E.

          Yours is my favorite comment of the day. Oh hell, all week. This one deserves a frame. Jim

          • billbear1961

            Thank you, Jim!

    • billbear1961

      Always delve into the details, sweetie bear.

  • DaveW

    I just used a bathroom. Only one in the restaurant. A row of stalls then at end a trough for the men. Just the malte symbol telling the ladies not to look. They could have in the mirrors easily

    What’s our obsession here?

    • billbear1961

      The puritan legacy and its OBSESSION with anything sexual, even when all you’re doing is ridding your body of WASTE.

      • Johnny Wyeknot

        The problem (?) with troughs is hot men lying in them.

        • billbear1961

          Lying? In what sense, mein Liebchen aus Walhalla?

          • Robincho

            I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t seen a man or two lying in them troughs… lügen =/= aufstehen 😉

          • ECarpenter

            I’ve seen some men laying there lying with their eyes . . .

          • Johnny Wyeknot

            The present participle sense. :-0

          • billbear1961

            Liebchen . . .


            Not the form, but the meaning.

            Never mind–I’m just teasing.


        • ECarpenter

          As long as they don’t plug it up and make it overflow on my shoes, I don’t see any problem with those guys. They’re just providing a service, out of their abundant love of mankind. Or at least parts of mankind.

          • Adam King

            It’s horizontal, so what the heck.

    • Johnny Wyeknot

      Where are you?

    • ECarpenter

      At a festival on a bank of the Seine in Paris, the toilets weren’t able to handle the demand. The women’s line was especially long. Some women evened out the lines by joining the much shorter line to use the men’s stalls in the men’s room.

      There was another line, all men, for the urinals, and no one minded the temporarily mixed-gender facilities – fair is fair, after all – except an American tourist and a French teenager from the suburbs. Everyone else was amused when those two had little hissy fits and went elsewhere. They just couldn’t pee if female people could see their backs while they peed.

  • Now that NYC has formally recognized 31 genders, I wonder if we’ll have facilities for all of them. Just think, drag queens in one, pangenders in another, gender fluids in another.

    This is an exciting time to be alive!

    • Hmm. I cannot tell if this is snark or not.

      • billbear1961

        I suspect it is not.

      • A little. When we start suing people for not referring to us as a gender we made up, I’d suggest we’ve lost our collective minds

        • billbear1961

          Never mind how many DOCTORS say it is NOT “made up.”

          • I’m referring to variants outside of transgender.

          • Tigernan Quinn

            The end of story on this is that it’s none of your business. You’re in your head – they’re in theirs. Anyone attempting to pass judgment on another’s truths is an idiot.

          • I’ll tell you the same thing I say to religious fundamentalists. You can believe whatever you want. The problem becomes when you want to penalize other people for not accepting your version of reality.

          • FredDorner

            If you seek to harass people by referring to them by an inappropriate pronoun, I suggest you do so outside of your school or your employment. See Price Waterhouse v Hopkins if you want to learn why.

          • Let’s keep making up pronouns like “ze”. I’m sure that will help the cause and eliminate confusion.

          • Chris Baker

            Price Waterhouse v Hopkins was a case about sex discrimination. They didn’t make her parter because she wasn’t acting ladylike. Not sure what that has to do with pronouns….

          • FredDorner

            That’s the point – the case recognized gender expression and gender nonconformity as protected under Title VII, and one aspect of the harassment was the intentional use of misgendered pronouns.

          • Chris Baker

            ah ok. thanks.

          • Homo Erectus

            Um – read that again.

          • Helen Damnation ✓ᵛᵉʳᶦᶠᶦᵉᵈ

            Who does that, penalize other folks for not accepting your own reality, besides Christians?

          • billbear1961

            I haven’t seen any mention of that in the courts.

      • Homo Erectus

        It’s not. He’s an ignorant asshole.

    • lymis

      Just because someone recognizes a plethora of gender identities or sexual orientations, it doesn’t follow that each group should require their own facilities.

      This is the same silliness that required legally separated restrooms for black and white people, and enabled the stupid calls that gay men should have separate facilities because they didn’t belong in with the “real men.”

      Red herring, and you know it.

  • I look so forward to the day when the Supreme Court sends down a ruling that says that when it comes to discrimination of any minority there is no such thing as the religious right to do so. “Blasphemy!” will be the cry of the church. How dare any judge decree a person of God does not have the right to discriminate against a gay person. Ha ha!

    • There are non-religious parents who don’t want their kids in a public restroom or especially a shower room with strangers with opposite sex genitalia. You can insist they’re all irrational bigots, but when it comes to their kids, such claims aren’t going to carry much weight.

      • FredDorner

        Any student who is uncomfortable using the same restroom as a transgender student is free to use the one person unisex restroom. The whiny and fragile bigots should be the ones who need to seek accommodation, not the disfavored minorities they hate.

        • So you assume that any biological female who doesn’t want take her panties down next to someone with a dick is a hater? That’s a sweeping generalization I think. But, in general, yeah … bathrooms are less an issue. Again, what about locker rooms?

          Is a girl who’s reluctant to show her breasts and vagina in the presence of someone with a dick an irrational transphobe?

          Ok. What you’re saying, though, is that one person’s sense of comfort and safety is important and another’s irrelevant because .. well, because you’re being equally as prejudiced as those you condemn.

          • FredDorner

            Maybe you should learn something about transgender folks? If anything they’re far more concerned with bodily privacy than cisgender folks.
            But regardless the whiny bigot should be the one who gets the accommodation, not the person they hate.

          • lizdhm

            Transgendered students aren’t a threat to anyone’s safety.

          • I never said they were. Most men aren’t a threat to women, either. Nevertheless, we have a cultural acceptance of gender segregated facilities. This is by design. Its what people want. If the transgender community were willing to provide a coherent and consistent definition of what it meant to be transgender, it would be one thing, but they dont. One could be on hormone therapy. Or not. They could have had reassignment surgery. Or not. They could dress a certain way. Or not.

            What bugs folks is the insistence that long standing traditions that impact people directly -unlike gay marriage – be thrown out the window for some undefined population and who will retaliate with accusations of bigotry and hatred if one doesn’t comply.

          • Amanda B. Rekendwith

            You mean long standing traditions of denial of others?

          • So the whole Mens/Womens bathrooms and locker rooms were initiated with the intent of making transgender individuals uncomfortable?

            That would be an interesting assertion given the fact that transgender was barely a thing in American culture until the last decade or so as well as the fact that gender dysphoria impacts less than half of 1% of the population.

          • JoeNCA

            “Given the fact that transgender was barely a thing in American culture…”

            Transgender has been a thing throughout the entire world throughout all of history.

            My mother tells the story of a guy who ran the movie theater in her tiny town in rural Minnesota in the 1950s who wore women’s dresses. Coit Toiwer in San Francisco is built by a woman who was an “honorary fireman” because women couldn’t be firemen, so she dressed up in men’s clothing so she could.

            There’s examples throughout history of transgender people. And while it’s more recently been acknowledged and better understood, it’s hardly a new thing. There have -always- been transgender people.

            And it doesn’t matter if it’s 1/2 of 1% of the population or something much smaller. Jews were 3/4 of 1% of the pre-Nazi German population. There is no size of a population where discrimination against them is acceptable.

            Transgender people exist. Doesn’t matter how many.

            We accept them now because WE KNOW BETTER.

            That’s how human knowledge works.

            But I know some people refuse to acknowledge the existence of either.

          • billbear1961

            A beautiful post, Joe!

          • Joe, I’m not denying the reality of transgender individuals. The problem is that it’s extending beyond transgender to, as NYC has acknowledged, 31 “genders” who believe they must be accommodated in every way imaginable to the point of insisting they be referred to by gender names they’ve made up (like “ze”).

            It’s not even the bathrooms or pronouns.

            Is it irrational bigotry to insist that a biological male be on estrogen for a number of years before competing against women in tennis? I guess it is. Never mind the quantifiable edge testosterone gives someone. And yes. I’ve been called a bigot for mentioning even this irrefutable fact. When we can’t discuss scientific truth because it conflicts with ideology, we have a problem.

          • Marti386

            “The problem is that it’s extending beyond transgender to, as NYC has
            acknowledged, 31 “genders” who believe they must be accommodated in
            every way imaginable to the point of insisting they be referred to by
            gender names they’ve made up (like “ze”).”

            Oh, boo hoo.

            The fact is, if you admit trans people exist (and we do), then you realize that gender is not necessarily based on the sex you were assigned at birth.

            And if you do THAT, then you realize that gender fall on a SPECTRUM. And that means there’s LOTS of possibilities.

            A gender revolution is taking place. Right here, right now. Everything society used to think about gender is being flushed away. And it’s gonna be glorious.

          • Expand on that. Is someone who feels nurturing and empathetic necessarily more “feminine”?

            If so, that seems to be an ultra-traditional understanding of gender, though I doubt you’d see the irony.

            Look, I fully support gender nonconformists. Men should be able to cry and women should be able to like driving trucks without feeling embarrassment. I’m not sure what you’re arguing for, though. Genetic mutants with new varieties of never-before-seen genitalia?

          • Marti386

            “Expand on that. Is someone who feels nurturing and empathetic necessarily more “feminine”?

            It has nothing to do with stereotypical gender roles. My gender identity isn’t based on outward expressions. Trans women (like cis women) run the full gamut from feminine to butch.

            It has to do with the gender you know you are inside. I’m female in my core, regardless of how I express myself.

          • And what are the properties or qualities you have that identify you as a woman, if you don’t mind me asking?

            It’s not your physical characteristics. It’s not your emotional qualities or your personality. It’s nothing you do. It’s not the way you dress or do your hair. So what is it that makes you a woman in the truest sense in a way that other people might recognize?

            Use adjectives if you can.

          • Marti386

            “And what are the properties or qualities you have that identify you as a woman, if you don’t mind me asking?”

            I do mind you asking.

          • Amanda B. Rekendwith

            So the whole Mens/Womens bathrooms and locker rooms were initiated with
            the intent of making transgender individuals uncomfortable?

            They were initiated in a period when the prevailing wisdom was not in tune with the reality of the entire society.
            Used to be a time, not that long ago, when bathrooms were inaccessible to those in wheelchairs. Should we turn back the clock?
            Used to be a time, not that long ago, when crossing signals provided no consideration for blind people. Should we turn back the clock?
            Used to be a time, not that long ago, when school children were forced(often via being beaten) to yield being left-handed. Should we turn back the clock?
            Things change–for the better–when we recognize that life is much more complex than we may have once believed, and we treat others with respect and adjust ourselves accordingly.

          • Just so I’m clear, if sex-segregated facilities are passe, what is the point of fighting to use a sex-specific facility? Why not just look to make all restrooms and gym locker rooms unisex?

            Wouldn’t that solve your issues?

          • lizdhm
          • That definition succeeds in saying nothing at all. Does it mean a man feels docile or sensitive and nurturing? Does it imply that a woman mourns not having a penis specifically?

          • Marti386

            Don’t worry about what causes gender. That’s way above your pay-grade.

            Just know that trans people are the gender we say we are.

          • Not according to the Olympics committee to name just one instance. If you want to compete as a female, you’re either born a female or you have to have been on hormones for a minimum number of years.

            What you want to insist you are isn’t the last word.

          • Marti386

            That has nothing to do with anything. Gender is not the same thing. Trans women are allowed to compete in the Olympics, and have for a decade. Taking hormones has nothing to do with gender.

          • Go look it up.

            “Under the new rules, an athlete transitioning to a woman must undergo hormone therapy and demonstrate that the total level of male testosterone in the blood has been below 10 nanomols per litre for at least a year prior to competing.”

            This is the recommendation of the scientists to the Olympic committee. This has nothing to do with hate. It’s about not ignoring the biological advantages that xy-chromosome individuals have over xx individuals.

            I didn’t say a transgender identity isn’t real. It’s a psychological belief about oneself. The question is whether everyone else has a moral or legal obligation to accept that belief and accommodate it in every conceivable circumstance.

          • Marti386

            Again, that has no bearing on your earlier comment. The fact that the Olympics wants trans women on hormones for competition purposes has nothing to do with gender identity.

          • True or false: someone who identifies as a woman is entitled access to every service, product and facility that a biological woman is, and anything less is unjust and illegal discrimination.


          • Marti386

            Okay, first off, it isn’t “biological women”. The correct term is cis woman. Trans women are as “biological” as cis women.

            And YES. Trans women are indeed entitled to access every service, product and facility as cis women. And YES, anything less in unjust and illegal discrimination. Because trans women are women.

          • So a transgender woman who isn’t provided oral contraception to prevent pregnancy by her insurance company (when it’s provided to cisgender women) is being unjustly discriminated against and can sue?

            I’m just curious how far you’re going to take this …

          • Marti386

            Don’t be silly. A trans woman isn’t capable of getting pregnant yet. This is gonna change, but until then, there’s no reason a trans woman would want or need oral contraception.

            When trans women ARE able to get pregnant (which will happen in the next 5 – 10 years), there WILL be a need for this.

          • lizdhm

            If an infertile cis woman can, but she likely cannot. There’s no demonstrated medical need, see.

          • lizdhm

            Re: the first, no, you’ve confused gender identity with highly stereotyped gender roles. Re: the 2nd you’d have to ask the trans guy. If you don’t know what gender identity is, you can read this:

          • Their definitions are useless. They’ve confused transgender with gender nonconforming.

            “I am a man” means what?

            If it’s completely subject to interpretation, then a transgender man should have no problem using the women’s locker room. Who knows. Maybe it’s all “men” in there, too. Gender has been abolished completely. Hooray!

          • lizdhm

            No, gender nonconforming is behavior. Gender identity is identity. It’s neurologically based.

          • lymis

            We have gender segregated facilities, not genitalia segregated facilities.

          • Marti386

            ” Nevertheless, we have a cultural acceptance of gender segregated facilities”

            Yes we do. The thing you’re missing is that trans people do not break that acceptance, since we ARE the gender we identify with.

          • lymis

            So make the accommodation for allowing anyone privacy who demands it. Don’t pre-emptively ban everyone from the use of the appropriate facility.

            And purely from a practical standpoint, if you allow the sweeping “everyone uses their birth-certificate-mandated restroom/shower” does absolutely nothing to incentivize creating the appropriate privacy options for people who need them.

            Requiring that schools allow trans students to use the facility associated with their birth-certificate gender does incentivize them for providing other options.

            And nothing so far requires trans kids NOT to use their birth-certificate-gender facility, either. So if a male-identified pre-transition person chooses to shower with the other students with vaginas but to use the boy’s restroom when he just has to pee, that’s a potential option too.

            Unless, of course, this has nothing to do with genitalia at all and just with the suppression and erasure of trans people. But of course, that couldn’t be anyone’s actual motives, now could it?

          • The_Wretched

            “breasts and vagina”
            Technically, the vagina is the only the tube / opening. It’s rather not visible in the regular course of changing.

          • BostonDotTom

            “So you assume that any biological female who doesn’t want take her panties down next to someone with a dick is a hater?”

            Why do dudes like you who make this exact argument always specifically choose the most squicky language possible? …take her panties down? I feel like I need a shower after reading that, man. You’ve done your best to sexualize a situation that isn’t sexual at all. I don’t get it. When women make this argument, you know, the group you are so het up on protecting, they don’t make the choice to use language like that.

          • Bathrooms aren’t sexual? You apparently have never been to the Folsom Street festival. I once dated a guy who told me about his many glory hole experiences in North Dakota of all places.

            You might need to get out more.

            But generally I would share your sentiments, personally.

          • BostonDotTom

            This isn’t about me or about glory holes. Of course bathrooms have sexual connotations in certain situations. We are not talking about those. We are talking about kids in school needing to relieve themselves. You are the one making the choice to sexualize language discussing that specific situation.

      • Homo Erectus

        Honey, the days of group showers in high school are long gone. They went away about the time that Dennis Hastert used to sit and watch in his Lazy Boy recliner.

      • Adam King

        Maybe they should train their little brats not to scurry around bathrooms staring at other people’s genitalia.

      • Marti386

        “There are non-religious parents who don’t want their kids in a public
        restroom or especially a shower room with strangers with opposite sex

        Unfortunately for them, that’s not going to work out. So I suggest they get used to the idea that trans people exist, and their kids may occasionally see one of us in a restroom. Since we’ve never assaulted a single cis person in a restroom ever, I don’t think they have much to worry about, do you?

  • fuow

    Hmm, let’s see – the Supremes will tie 4-4, leaving the Fourth’s decision in place.

    • JustSayin’

      Maybe not, I know of nothing in Kennedys rulings that indicate trans-negative bias. He has been a consistent allie in rulings relating to LGBT folk. If that holds true all the better for us.

      However this case is just one more reason to vote BLUE no matter who!

      • FredDorner

        Kennedy is good on gay rights but much less so on women’s rights and sex discrimination cases. He dissented in the Price Waterhouse v Hopkins case which might be key to the transgender issue, although I don’t know the basis for his dissent.

  • TallBearNC

    The Supreme Court can also choose not to hear the case and then the circuit court decision would stand but only over the states for 4th circuit oversees

    • Reality.Bites

      Which is a likely outcome given:

      a) there’s no disagreement between circuits
      b) a 4-4 tie would let the circuit decision stand anyway

      SCOTUS didn’t hear the marriage case till a circuit went the other way and upheld a marriage ban.

  • Bathrooms? Ok. But why not showers as many have argued for? Most trans teens haven’t had sex reassignment surgery. So why not let someone with breasts and a vagina into a shower room with almost entirely men? What could possibly go wrong?

    • Friday

      Err, cause, contrary to demonizations, trans people, much less *kids* …don’t even *want* others to see the anatomy they themselves are uncomfortable with even having in the first place? Kind of goes with that *being trans thing,* you know?

    • Reality.Bites

      Schools haven’t had open showers for years.

    • lymis

      Making reasonable accommodation for anyone who chooses not to get nude around others is not outside the scope of the law. Singling out one group for HAVING to use those accommodations or denying the use of facilities that everyone is is free to use is.

      And, as long as there’s not some sweeping bullshit about “required to use the bathroom/shower that matches the gender on your birth certificate, ALLOWING a school to provide a private, lockable shower for someone who needs it and requests it is different from REQUIRING separate facilities for trans students, and very different from applying such a requirement to routine restroom use.

      Besides, your comment appears to presuppose that cisgendered people are incapable of controlling themselves in the presence of genitalia, and that the solution to rape and assault isn’t to punish the offenders, but to punish the potential victims. Some asshole straight boy might rape a trans student? Easy, ban all trans kids from all bathrooms, rather than focus on the criminal behaviors of the majority. NOT.

      That same “logic” was the basis for not allowing black people in “whites only” restrooms or bathing facilities, and for not allowing openly gay military servicemembers. It was bullshit then, it’s bullshit now.

      Yes, there are realities to take into consideration. So we need to take them into consideration, not dodge the whole question by shaming and discriminating against an entire class of people.

    • The_Wretched

      I’m very bi and managed to not rape the men who caught my attention over the years in gym and pool showers.

  • Homo Erectus
  • JaniceInToronto

    N.C. really needed this slap upside the head. They’re having a distinctly hard time understanding how reality works.

  • Cynthia Ratzke

    Too bad bigots. The courts are against you!

  • Ninja0980

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again with the 4th Circuit.
    Simply look up the history of this court and how awful it was and you’ll see how having Obama being able to appoint judges to this court made all the difference in the world when it comes to our rights.
    Elections matter folks, they truly do.

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