NEW HAMPSHIRE: Sanders Leads Clinton In New Poll

Bernie Sanders is leading Hillary Clinton for the first time in a newly-released New Hampshire poll. CNN reports:

Sanders topped Clinton with 44% compared to her 37% support among likely Democratic primary voters, according to a Franklin Pierce University/Boston Herald poll. Sanders has been gaining momentum as he generates enthusiasm among the Democratic Party’s progressive base but until now he has still trailed Clinton in every early state poll. Clinton continues to enjoy more than double Sanders’ support in national polls, though that polling has also shown Clinton’s vulnerabilities as voters question her honesty and trustworthiness. Vice President Joe Biden, who is reportedly still considering whether to enter the fray, would start with a 9% base of support in New Hampshire if he decided to run, according to the poll. The bottom three candidates, former Virginina Sen. Jim Webb, former Maryland Gov. Martin O’Malley and former Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee, resonated with 1% or less of likely Democratic primary voters.

The poll surveyed 442 likely New Hampshire Democratic primary voters.

  • GarySFBCN

    Great news! I hope Bernie wins.

    • Todd20036

      You think he has a chance in the general?

      • CA2015

        Not a chance. He’d do about as well as Dukakis, at best.

      • GarySFBCN

        Against Trump? Maybe. Against Jeb? No.

      • pablo

        He does if Trump runs as an independent.

      • downtownla

        Bernie has a great chance. In fact, I think he has a better chance than Hillary. Hillary is polarizing and will never have cross over appeal to either Republicans or Independents. She is going to have to rely on a high Democratic turnout. And given how she has been running her campaign and her inability to even mount a large audience for her kickoff, she will NOT motivate the base. Bernie, however, has been getting record turnout in places like Phoenix, Dallas and Houston, not too mention more blue areas like Portland (28,000), Los Angeles (27,000) and Seattle (15,000) this past weekend alone. The people showing up are not Democratic activists. They are green party, independents and others who are sick and tired of the way politics has been run in this country. He will catch the wave of the anti-Washington insider which is the overall mood of the country. Unfortunately for HIllary, the timing is just off for her. What she represents is just not what the country is looking for right now.

  • olandp

    Hillary was supposed to cruise to her coronation in 2008 too. How did that turn out again?

    • gaylib

      You mean the DC conventional wisdom that it was supposed to be a coronation so that they could accuse her of arrogance when their own prediction didn’t come true? Okay, then, Hillary has always said that this wouldn’t be a cakewalk for her and the she expected to earn the nomination.

  • Gene

    Progressives (who are realists) should never celebrate anything that makes Republicans happy. He would get his ass handed to him in a general election (he is nice guy…with good ideas, that the average voter will NOT support, even if logic would say they should).
    this is NOT good. But, he will fade in time. and he does not have the $$$ to pull it off, so I doubt Clinton is losing to much sleep over it. and the Brietbart and Freepers crowd have some fun I guess…they have had a bad couple of days.

    • CA2015

      And to those who say there is no difference between Hillary and a generic Republican, then compare the type of Supreme Court Justice that President Hillary Clinton would appoint versus the Scalia-clone that a Republican president would appoint. I’d rather have more Ginsbergs and Kagans than Scalias and Alitos.

      • Ninja0980

        The nominees being batted around now would make Scalia look like a moderate.

        • Gene

          so true…some of them would have made Bork proud… (shudder)

        • Bill_Perdue

          “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. “HL Mencken

          Tone down the hysteria. The courts act on the basis of mass action, not who appointed them.

      • JT

        Yes. Unless of course you’re a Puddinhead who posts here often and thinks SCOTUS appointees don’t matter.

        • Gene

          shusssh… the name need not be said…the summoning works in strange ways. (and none of us want to read about what a right wing nut Sanders is…’cause he aint)

          • MDB

            Precisely.We don’t need to have yet another thread hijacked by our resident …..Yikes, nevermind. I’ve already said too much.

          • Bill_Perdue

            Why are you hijacking this thread for the right?

          • JT

            Puddinhead is not this person’s name, although it should be. 😉 He thinks everyone who disagrees with him is right wing.

          • vorpal

            Compared to him, even the most liberal posters here ARE right-wing. He’s so far off to the left that he fell off the edge and unfortunately survived to tell us all about it, over and over and over again.

          • JT

            I think he’s got more Stalinist in him than would fit easily in the left to right spectrum. He’s very authoritarian and lacking in nuance, not to mention completely unrealistic politically.

          • People4Humanity

            … and has no candidate to back. He says, “Don’t vote!” when asked to choose.

          • JT

            I thought he was recommending voting for some unknown who would get less than 1% of the vote. But if he’s recommending that people not vote, he’s even worse than I thought.

          • Bill_Perdue

            Basically leftists say don’t vote for the warmongers, capitalists racists and other right wing scum preferred by Democrats and Republicans.

            On November 8, 2016 vote Socialist or Labor, vote for good referendums and if there aren’t any Left candidates write in Chelsea Manning or join the majority in sitting it out.

            It’s always better not to vote at all than to vote for our enemies, Democrats and Republicans.

            “It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don’t want and get it.” – Eugene V. Debs

          • Steve Teeter

            Don’t vote and you forfeit the right to complain about politics, which I don’t think you’re about to do.

            Remember the victor only needs a majority of the votes that are cast, not of those that could be cast. Refusing to vote out of spite is handing the victory to the one you don’t want.

            And that Debs quote? He’s barely remembered now.

          • JT

            Your favorite Debs quote is a bad one because it, like you, lacks nuance. If you don’t vote you, or throw away your vote, you may get the worst of the alternatives available. It’s better to avoid that, even if you don’t get what you regard as the best.

          • Bill_Perdue

            For you nuance means voting for wars of aggression, border racsim and cuts in the standard of living of working people.

          • JT

            Don’t you think those things are going to happen anyway?

          • Bill_Perdue

            Candidates are for those fools who think they matter and that this is a democracy. They don’t and it isn’t.

          • Bill_Perdue

            I’m an anti-Stalinist and part of the left opposition. You think I’m authoritarian because I refuse to be a sellout like you.

          • JT

            You have a lot of the Stalinist in you however much you deny it. You are authoritarian and a bald-faced liar about anyone who disagrees with you.

          • Bill_Perdue

            I’m not authoritarian because I refuse to sell out.

          • JT

            That’s not what authoritarian means.

          • Bill_Perdue

            ” While Hillary Clinton has demurred over her position on the controversial Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, her campaign has partnered with a pro-TPP law and lobby firm to raise money. … Clinton’s campaign held a fundraiser in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday with the political action committee of a law firm called McGuireWoods. Lobby registration documents reveal that a subsidiary of the group lobbies on behalf of Smithfield Foods, the world’s largest producer of pork, to pass both the TPP and “fast track”—a special presidential mandate that nearly eliminates Congress’ role in crafting trade legislation. Despite mounting pressure to take a position, Clinton has only provided non-commital answers regarding her stance on both TPP and TPA. http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/hillary_clinton_fundraises_with_pro-tpp_law_firm_20150619

          • Bill_Perdue

            Sanders, like all Democrats is a right centrist. No one who runs in the DP or shills for it is a leftist. Like you they’re all rightists.

        • Bill_Perdue

          They don’t – mass action matters. Only shills for the Democrats and Republicans think that this is a democracy.

          “A new scientific study from Princeton researcher Martin Gilens and Northwestern researcher Benjamin I. Page has finally put some science behind the recently popular argument that the United States isn’t a democracy any more. And they’ve found that in fact, America is basically an oligarchy.

          Comparing the preferences of the average American at the 50th percentile of income to what those Americans at the 90th percentile preferred, as well as the opinions of major lobbying or business groups, the researchers found out that the government followed the directives set forth by the latter two much more often. It’s beyond alarming.

          As Gilens and Page write, ‘the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.’ In other words, their statistics say your opinion literally does not matter.” http://mic.com/articles/87719/princeton-concludes-what-kind-of-government-america-really-has-and-it-s-not-a-democracy

          • Steve Teeter

            But if the poor vote in large numbers? Doesn’t that change things?

          • Bill_Perdue

            This is not a democracy.

          • JT

            Keep telling yourself that when a Repuke wins and appoints more wingnut SCOTUS members and they wreck havoc on the country. If you keep repeating that enough, it might actually assuage some of the guilt you should feel.

          • Bill_Perdue

            Democrats are Republicans in drag. Very poorly designed drag.

          • JT

            Do you deny the existence of differences of degree?

          • Bill_Perdue

            Do you deny that you vote for Obama’s’ wars of aggression, his attacks on unions and his rancid border racsim because you agree with those policies.

            If you pretend you don’t support them then you’re just another lair.

          • JT

            Obviously, you have no understanding of comparatives. That is why you’re a complete political loser and would produce the worst of all possible worlds.

          • Bill_Perdue

            You vote for Obama’s’ wars of aggression, his attacks on unions and his rancid border racsim because you agree with those policies.

          • JT

            You would recommend a course of action that would have given us McCain and now one from the Repuke clown car of wingnuts, which would be far worse. You are a complete political reprobate.

      • People4Humanity

        Does anyone remember Robert Bork?

    • GarySFBCN

      “Progressives (who are realists) should never celebrate anything that makes Republicans happy.”

      What a crock. And if Clinton isn’t losing any sleep over this, who cares?

      You are painting Sanders as being an extremist. He is not.

      • Gene

        I agree. he is not.
        But, when polling shows 48 % of Americans wont even LISTEN to someone who has described themselves as a socialist, and most Americans still hate the very middle of the road Obamacare, his ideas are pretty damn extreme to the great middle of America. Pity, for most of his ideas would be good for most of them, but, good luck convincing them of that.

        As per what our conservative opponants could do with someone, a Jewish man originally from New York, now a Senator in VT, on record as using the “S” word to describe himself….oy. hillary is an easy target….he is the hindenberg with a target painted on it.

        • downtownla

          Actually, the voters mood right now is very anti-Washington and anti-Wall Street. They hate all politicians, especially those aligned with the two parties. That’s why Trump is doing so well. Voters will be looking for something different. Democrats said the same thing about Reagan, “oh, he’s too conservative to win.” Well, don’t be surprised if voters take the attitude, “Fuck, I hate the Republicans AND Democrats, let’s just give the other guy a chance.”

        • Toasterlad

          And the poll that had him beating nearly all the Republican candidates in a head to head matchup? Your explanation for that?

        • BlueberriesForMe

          You’re right, Gene. He shouldn’t even bother, right? Who cares what happens because the “conservative opponents” you mention above are going to “win” anyway, right? /S
          C’mon. Give the man at least a fighting chance before you doom him. Does he have the same growing following as Obama when he started out? I don’t know. I *DO* know that he sparked interest in people who were going to support Hillary, however tepidly, because the alternative is downright awful.
          Now, there’s someone else to at least consider. Sure, you can hang the Socialist, Jew, Vermont, whatever label you want on him. So what? Those people sure aren’t going to vote for Hillary anyway. Hillary will have to “up her game” – at least, I think so. Again, for me, it’s still a long way until next year. I’m willing to wait and see what happens (and support Bernie). I’m not anti-Hillary. I just wish we could have someone else as a candidate. And there is somebody. And I think that’s a good thing.

        • Jim ‘Prup’ Benton

          This is my point said without my usual excess verbiage. (And it brings up an important point, that there is STILL a sufficient remnant of residual anti-Semitism which would add to Bernie’s problems.) Damn, I wish I lived in a country that would give him a chance — I might not vote for him, but I’d feel better about the future.

        • Bill_Perdue

          The best thin BS is doing is laying the groundwork for a split between rightists and right centrists that will tear your party apart. Trump is doing the same to your brothers and sisters in the RP.

          Sayonara, Democrat and/or Republican.

      • Cody

        He will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER win.

    • vorpal

      While I like his ideas, Bernie is on the cusp of turning 74. Given the incredible stress of the presidency, I’m hesitant to believe that he’d survive one term, much less two.

      • Psh. Reagan was 72 and had Alzheimer’s and we had to put up with him for 2 more decades…

        • vorpal

          (I actually didn’t know that :-)… limited US history knowledge, which is kind of shameful, since I am an American / Canadian… albeit one that grew up almost my entire life in Canada.)

        • mwest

          Reagan was 69 at inauguration and 77 when he left office.

          • CRAP *Looks up Wiki*

            *Hands back my AP History credential.*

          • Gene

            and while a senile bastard, he did not, as John Stewart put it “have hair that looks like you put his dick in a light socket”.
            odd as it is, people vote for people who LOOK presidential. They just do. Jeb does. Hillary could pull it off. sanders…not so sure
            .
            Oh yes…did I mention anti semetism? Still alive and well in America, and the fundys want to save them here, and support them in Israel, but election one, a non practicing one at that as I understand it?…nope.

          • We shoulda run Lew Black…all of the same qualities, but also with the bombast of The Don 🙂

            Though, he’s always said he woulda been a shit POTUS…

          • Circle Thomas

            Reagan was also diagnosed with Alzheimers around ’79.

        • JCF

          That’s your argument in FAVOR of Bernie’s age? Reagan?!

          • Hey, if we can elect a senile, doddering old fool who had his wife’s star-gazer pretty much run the nation, we can elect Bernie. Hillary won’t be much younger, just a handful of years, FWIW.

      • BlueberriesForMe

        I know a lot of people now in their 80’s. Granted they are not all in good health. But some of them are. I understand about the stress factor. His wife’s a doctor, remember? I’m sure if she was concerned she’d let him know. Maybe they both decided it was OK for him to do this. It’s now or never. Zeus knows, America could certainly use someone like him, leading the country (IMO).

    • MattM

      I’m all for electing Sanders. But we have a tough enough time when the entire GOP already refers to our candidates as inherently socialist, a word most Americans are too stupid to know the definition of. Bernie is an actual socialist. So many dumb Americans will be scared off by his socialist ideology.

    • Toasterlad

      Is that why you’re compelled to let everyone know he hasn’t got a chance in every single article about Bernie Sanders? Because he hasn’t got a chance?

    • BlueberriesForMe

      Gene, IMHO, I don’t think he will “fade in time”, regardless of the $ factor.
      He has a strong following. I think it’s stronger than many people think. He will continue to put his message out even if the “media” does not. I would rather have him than Hillary. It’s still a long way until next year.

      • Jim ‘Prup’ Benton

        Can we possibly use our heads here, and not our hearts? I love Bernie as a Senator. I might even like to see him as a Cabinet Member or senior advisor. But as a Candidate for President? (I have a few Republican friends, including my doctor, who tends to play off me and act about 50% more right wing than he really is — our arguments are as fun and more therapeutic than his treatments, even though he saved my life. But I can hear him, and more serious arguers having a wonderful horselaugh at a party that can’t find a single member to run and has to run someone who has NEVER run as a Democrat before.)

        I thought it was the Republicans, this election, who could be counted on to chase the bright shiny objects, the one-issue candidates who would pull the party down a rabbit hole of irrelevancy — but now WE’RE trying it. Bernie would make George McGovern look like FDR, and we wouldn’t even win one state — well, maybe we’d get Vermont and DC.

        But there is a much scarier thought. (It is the one major reason why I wish there was a stronger second-place candidate, a Klobuchar, a Gillibrand, a Merkley, even a McCaskill.) No one is immortal, or immune from disease or accidents — not to mention the number of angry people with guns and other weapons out there. If something happened to Hillary, the party wouldn’t turn to Bernie — or to the actually much more electable Chafee or O’Malley (Webb is unthinkable.) Instead, there is an obvious choice — one who might have tried anyway had it not been for Hillary — and he’s the monster in my dreams and the only person who could get me to vote Republican — were the candidate Kasich — and how my stomach churns at writing those words.

        My fear, simply, is that we might turn to the Democratic Richard Nixon — only with more personal greed for cash as well as power than Nixon had — who is the Governor both Joe and I suffer under. His father was a great man, but the son is simply a horror.

        • BlueberriesForMe

          I’ll leave it to you and Gene and everyone else who say Bernie can not possibly be a viable candidate. To me, that’s not the point of his candidate-cy (is that a word?). Does that make sense? Maybe not.

          However, he has attracted attention and support from a large group of people who ACTUALLY vote. Why? Because he discusses issues and has REAL opinions and ideas about issues that affect MOST Americans. Except for the 1% who only care about $. But at this point not enough voters to be elected President.

          I don’t care about polls at this point or the Donald Trump entertainment factor. Bernie gives me, and I think, at least, some other people, hope. You would say: “You’re dreaming.” You remember Harvey Milk, don’t you? Yeah, I thought so. Not “hope and change” but hope that there is a movement (or similar) to try and change the direction of this country. Maybe that’s total wishful thinking. We’ll never get anywhere without getting rid of the Republicans, and gerrymandering, and $ in politics, and 500 other things. But what’s the alternative?

          Just to lie down and hope Hillary and her campaign will win? Not for me,at this point. At least with Bernie, I’m interested. I’m not really interested in Hillary, at this point.
          If she is the nominee, I will certainly vote for her. And possibly do some campaign work for her. As I wrote before, It’s still a long way until next year. If Donald Trump
          becomes the Republican nominee or runs in a different party, I’ll be interested in seeing what happens. Peace out.

    • TrueBlue

      Good point. I’m in 100%+ for whoever the eventual Dem nominee is, but I’m very afraid that Sanders, as much as I like many of his positions, has absolutely no chance at winning a general election.

      This is precisely what the Republicans are hoping for. Continually paint Hillary (that woman candidate) as untrustworthy (as if George W, Jebya, Trump, Romney etc. are/were trustworthy) and fatally injure her candidacy. It is the same thing they have done to Obama over the years, dog whistle continually so people remain afraid of what the Muslim black foreigner is doing to America. It all works to a degree and predisposes the voters to go to that place when anything questionable happens involving the candidate.

      No candidate at this level is perfect by any means, but I’m all in for the Dem ticket no matter who it is….way too much at stake this election.

    • Cody

      He is the Nader of 2016.

    • Bill_Perdue

      You’re not a progressive.

      BS could win it, but if he did he’d just be another Obama – a right centrist who uses populism to cover his ass while he busts unions, supports the zionist bunkerstaat and wars of aggression to secure oil and other resources and someone who refuses to take on the root causes of racism, sexism and homophobia.

    • Charles Manuel P.

      I refuse to pledge support to any candidate based on the asinine idea “Oh well…at least she’ll win” Bernie ’16 for me!

  • Mike MGB

    FYI folks, poll conducted by Franklin Pierce Univ. Whose president is Bush adviser Andrew Card.

    • bkmn

      Major.

    • TommyTune

      Thanks for pointing that out. I can’t stand Andy Card. He was one of the worst of Goober Bush’s cabinet members – a mean Irish street bully from Boston.

    • Gene

      its an outlier, and Andrew card is a bit of a liar

      • Gene

        oh good lord…its a Boston HERALD (toilet paper / fish wrap ) based polling firm…sheeesh. why bother. Hell. even Murdoch sold that damn thing

        • tristram

          The Herald paper and website have been consistently pushing the idea that Hillary is faltering. Every day there’s a new website headline “Bad news for Hillary,” “Another Stumble,” “More Problems,” etc. etc. Boosting Bernie (and hence this poll result) is part and parcel of their plan to propagate the perception that Hillary is weak and vulnerable.

          The Herald’s fondest dream would be for Bernie to win the Democratic nomination – which would make any but the craziest of the GOP candidates (Cruz, Huckabee, Trump) a slam-dunk to reside in the White House for the next eight years and appoint three, possibly four, Supreme Court justices.

          • StateofReason

            Well, in reality most news organizations (with a few notable exceptions) don’t really care who wins or loses as long as there’s a good fight. Nothing sells papers like a good controversy or a good fight. If Hillary or Bernie just sailed all the way through without a competition all newspapers would be disappointed.

    • Thanks Mike. Now, everything makes sense.

    • bambinoitaliano

      So this is an attempt to stop Hillary from 100% sure taking over the White House? I get it !

      • BlueberriesForMe

        One of the The Great American Drama’s for sure. I thought I read somewhere there was going to an opera produced.

        • RaygunsGoZap

          Delish! I can hear the opera hall reverberating with Why? Why? Why?

          • Daniel

            …Delilahhhhhhhhh!

          • People4Humanity

            🎼🎶

    • Max_1

      And when the same poll last march had Hillary 44% to Bernie 8% you said the same thing?

      That’s gotta Bern!

      • Dead Giveaway

        The mental gymnastics of pro-Hillary drones to deny Bernie’s existence is astounding.

      • james_from_cambridge

        I almost feel sorry for Hillary. Almost. She’s about to get Obama’d again, this time by Bernie. If her support in the Democratic party is this weak, what in God’s name is her support like for the General? Clearly, the Clintons have been replaced as the patron saints of the Democratic party by the more liberal Obama and more and more, I think she will not be able to reassemble the Obama Coalition to put her in the White House.

  • crewman

    My concern with Bernie is electability. He reminds me of Jimmy Carter in some ways. He doesn’t have a strong persona. And the comment we will start hearing around the clock if he beats Hillary: ‘I am a socialist.’ (Maybe he will finally make a convincing argument to take that out of the pejorative category.) Still, Hillary brings a lot of baggage.

    • Gene

      she has baggage…he has a whole cargo hold, in the minds of the general electorate. the progressive left adore him. Its the opposite of conservatives who were excited about Santorum “he UNDERSTANDS me” one (a relative) told me. “so, you will vote for him, even if he is to far right to win the general election?” “Yeah! but, he is NOT, when people read his ideas they will see Santorum represents whats really best for them even if they dont see it now….”
      .
      change the names, change the political wing from right to left…same story…would be same result.

    • Eebadee-eebadee-thatsallfolks

      Dozens and dozens of polls of hypothetical match-ups by all the major polling firms show Bernie doing as well or very nearly as well as Hillary against the various GOP candidates (within one or two percentage points). So electabilty as an argument is out the window.

      • MickinDetroit

        and dozens of polls put Donald Trump as the preferred candidate of Republicans…. you really think donald trump is electable?

        • Eebadee-eebadee-thatsallfolks

          Shhhhhhh! The Trump show is very entertaining! Pass the popcorn.

  • oikos

    I don’t think he will win the nomination but he is driving Hillary toward more progressive policies that she would not have embraced. I could foresee Bernie as a Sec of Health and Human services or Edu in the next administration. That being said, I did not foresee Obama beating her last time around.

    • MickinDetroit

      secretary of two things that should not exist as federal cabinet level things…. which fits perfectly in a progressive fantasy that this poll supports.

      • oikos

        Please do go on and tell us why they should not exist.

        • MickinDetroit

          well as to the Ed… we have a decentralized non federal education system. its a pointless department that has no authority over anything that couldnt be handled by Justice (as in civil rights/title nine matters) or locally or rolled into various other departments

          Same with HHs. Dept of Ed, HHS the SS admin and a few others were once all ONE department….but can’t have that. MUST HAVE MORE Bureaucracy and departments to staff.

          • oikos

            Yes we should just get rid of all regulation and government. Things will just take care of themselves.

            http://mattifrost.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/libertarian-intersect.jpg?w=582&h=427

          • MickinDetroit

            did I say that? no. I did not. I said the Dept of Ed is a redundant useless organization that does nothing that isn’t already done or can be done through other agencies.

            As for HHS, its just a funnel for tax dollars to the coffers of big pharma….when it’s not keeping drugs off the market that people desperately need.

            The top 10 recipients of HHS dollars include major pharmaceutical companies and defense contractors:

            SAIC, Inc.
            $2,863,414,838
            Merck & Co.
            $2,384,650,585
            Westat, Inc
            $2,117,195,587
            Sanofi Pasteur MSD SNC Sigle SPMSD
            $1,681,527,521
            GlaxoSmithKline
            $1,392,443,263
            Wyeth
            $1,170,849,726
            Research Triangle Institute Inc
            $1,156,129,714
            Lockheed Martin
            $1,045,138,008
            Northrop Grumman
            $966,528,985
            Veritas Capital Fund II, LP
            $809,789,386

          • oikos

            We need a Dept of Education and one with teeth to set national standards. What other agency should oversee education? It is not the function of the DOJ to regulate education. The only reason Dept of Education is ineffective is because it has not been given broader powers to regulate, which is why students in the south do not learn actual US history. Most of the ineffectiveness of any given govt agency is due to the penchant of republicans to staff them with lobbyist hacks and defund them, not because they are not needed. This idea that smaller govt is more effective might have worked in 1890 when the US had a population of 62 million but a country with a big population requires a bureaucracy. We can see what happens when govt structures are defunded,deregulated and dismantled: I give you Kansas and Wisconsin, perfect examples of so called small govt.

          • MickinDetroit

            There is a difference between teahadist destruction of government and right sizing government. The dept of ed is an easy low hangin fruit among many because it’s totally pointless. There WILL NEVER BE a national education standard. That doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a good thing. but it will never. ever, happen. no one in texas wants some fag in DC telling them how to edumacate their chillins. Jesus wrote the constituion to protect their rights to have their schools teach creationism as science…because the earth is 5000 years old…because the bible is the only book anyone needs.

          • oikos

            Who decides what the right size of govt is?

          • MickinDetroit

            we are, through our elected representatives. but of course, our elected representatives don’t actually serve us…they serve the government and the bureaucracy for which it stands…so we get stupid things like the TSA and the Dept of Ed…and 17 different intelligence agencies.. and spending more on defense than the next NINE nations combined…..and on and on. which results in worse services all around and massive debt

          • oikos

            Good reason for all of us to vote in every election and be politically active.

          • MickinDetroit

            sure. but I’ve never voted in an election that was anything other than a choice between the lesser of two evils.

          • oikos

            Everything starts at the local level. When fundies control town and school boards , they end up fielding candidates for higher office. Every election counts.

          • MickinDetroit

            i live in Detroit…. it has NEVER been controlled by “the fundies”. yet it is a third world shit hole.

          • Didn’t Snyder just put a State controller into office in Detroit last year because of their economic issues?

          • MickinDetroit

            Yes..and the city has been through bankruptcy. Its now doing much better financially and for people like me… younger, relatively well off, educated, employed, households without kids…it’s a really fun place to be. However, just pointing out none of the actions taken that have made this progress were done voluntarily by the city leadership…leadership that has been for 50 years 100% progressive liberal democrat.

          • oikos

            Part of the same model of conservatives decimating unions and at the same time shipping jobs offshore. I live in the Northeast and most of our manufacturing jobs are gone and the cities where they were located decimated. People here vote for ‘small government conservatives’ so they can have lower taxes at any cost while failing to realize that’s what fucked up the economy in the first place and bitching about people (who used to have well-paying jobs) receiving public assistance.

          • MickinDetroit

            Clinton signed NAFTA… (HRC supports its progeny–TPP etc) .which was a huge factor in the decimation of the manufacturing base in Michigan.

          • oikos

            Manufacturing was going away before Clinton. This goes back to Reagan. NAFTA was just an acceleration of the process.

          • MickinDetroit

            … so he just gave it the coup de grace and HRC supports cremating the body… and that’s just fine? That is the lamest defense of the Clinton machine I’ve ever heard.

          • oikos

            Whose defending the Clinton machine? Reagan busted PATCO paving the way for widespread union busting and planted the seed that govt is the problem. It’s been downhill ever since. This election is about one thing: who sits on the SCOTUS and nothing else. If you want two or three more justices like Thomas and Scalia, then don’t vote or vote for a repub. Since I don’t want another generation of conservative justices, I will vote for whoever the Dems field.

          • MickinDetroit

            ” Since I don’t want another generation of conservative justices, I will vote for whoever the Dems field.”

            not exactly a ringing endorsement.

          • oikos

            I didn’t say it was. So what? Clinton is not my first choice, I would much rather have Bernie, but who sits on SCOTUS will decide our fates for a long time to come. If she is on the ballot I will hold my nose and cast my vote.

          • Bill_Perdue

            Stop lying. It goes back to Carter.

            Orlando Sentinel 05 25 1986 “The Jan. 1, 1984, breakup of the giant Bell System shrunk what had been the world’s largest telephone monopoly to one-third its previous size. AT&T was sent spinning into a world of non-union competitors and cheap imports…. Bearing the brunt of that cost-cutting has been the CWA, which represents 155,000 AT&T workers. Since 1983, the company has reduced its non-management work force by 42,000 through layoffs, attrition and early retirement.”

            Railway Age (a management magazine) “By stripping away needless and costly regulation in favor of marketplace forces wherever possible, this act will help assure a strong and healthy future for our nation’s railroads and the men and women who work for them…” Jimmy Carter, on signing the Staggers Act http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blog/Page-3.html

            Mac Fleming, President, Brotherhood Of Maintenance Of Way Employees” The railroads used the Staggers Act to massively cut jobs throughout the industry, shamelessly shedding thousands upon thousands of miles of track, creating short lines that were thinly disguised creations of the big roads at that time. http://www.bmwe.org/journal/2001/05may/C2.htm

            Liberals are the worst enemies or working people and unions because they can get away with more. That’s why they’re used for things like NAFTA, deregulation and the greatest fraud in human history, the Obama’s administration’s gift of over $7.7 trillion ($7,700,000,000,000.00) to the banksters, who stashed it gain interest.

          • oikos
          • Bill_Perdue

            Vote against Democrats and their brother/cousins the Republicans.

            On November 8, 2016 vote Socialist or Labor, vote for good referendums and if there aren’t any Left candidates write in Chelsea Manning or join the majority in sitting it out.

            It’s always better not to vote at all than to vote for our enemies, Democrats and Republicans.

            “It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don’t want and get it.” – Eugene V. Debs

            Decent people get that which is why Democrats are losers.

          • oikos
          • Bill_Perdue

          • Mark

            Only thing that scares me with govt reg in education is when policy trickles down with party. It may be evolution today – but sooner or later the regime changes will bring how the god particle rules the world thru your local church.

          • People4Humanity

            Federal Edu could take over school textbook choices from Texas, for one solid thing.

          • Gene

            That is FUCKING Beautiful
            I LUVVVV that.

  • Ninja0980

    Sad to say but as much as I like Bernie Sanders, he is no Barrack Obama.
    He will get crushed in a general election.
    And the way things are going, it looks like Hillary might as well.
    This is what happens when you don’t have a deep bench.

    • Mark

      I don’t think the youngins will actively support either. Sanders and Clinton are both ‘old’ and way too much ‘establishment’ to bring change meaningful to the youngins. Clinton’s got too much baggage, and Bernie looked like a limp dick on that stage with the fake BLM’s. Of the current list – O’Malley is the only one who might be able to appeal to them…..and i said ‘might’…..if he ever gets off his ass and gets rolling.

      We are getting to that tipping point where us boomers are no longer the main thrust of any forward movement. We’re retiring…getting tired of the bullshit fights. Trump’s ‘allure’ is totally about his bitch slapping the status quo regardless of right or wrong or arrogant or childish. A dem would do well to take his antics, apply a hefty amount of polish, and come out swinging.

      • Problem is, you get the scolds on here who would make that sort of activity seem “shameful” because we like “decorum.”

        #Gripe

        • Mark

          agree…..
          sometimes a spade is a fucking spade.

          • But that’s racist!!!

          • Gene

            then say its a fucking shovel….makes the point, no racism.
            😉

          • Hup

            Cody wouldn’t like that though.

          • If that’s what works.

      • Rambie

        That is why the NYT and other news outlets have been going after Clinton for the last few years over Benghazi and her email server. Nothing really there, but just whining about it gets the low info voters to think there is and question her record.

        Depending who the GOP’er candidate finally ends up. If it’s like Rubio or Walker the age contrast will be bigger than Bush.

      • Toasterlad

        Maybe you should check out the demo at a Bernie Sanders event. You’ll find mostly young faces.

    • MikeBx2

      Maybe I missed something, but with the way things are going, Hillary is likely to win even bigger, not get crushed. There hasn’t been a poll in a couple weeks with head to head general election match-ups, but I’ll bet after that ridiculous debate and all the Trump talk, Clinton’s margins of victory are even larger against most of the possible GOP nominees.

  • Bob Black

    Let’s not forget Martin O’Malley. He doesn’t have Hillary’s baggage and he doesn’t scare moderates the way Bernie does.

    • Gene

      I like him (and its shallow..but..those arms…) but, not enough recognition..and not enough $ to pull it off. Maybe in 8 years…who knows?

      • Hup

        lol I just googled Martin O’Malley arms – and yeah – he’s also handsome.

    • Todd20036

      GOTP made-up shit is not “baggage”. Sorry.

      • GarySFBCN

        Even if the GOP didn’t exist, Clinton has a ton of baggage.

      • Randy Ellicott

        Well lets be honest, Hillary has her own baggage, true there is a lot of GOP BS out there (when isn’t there) but she does carry quite a lot of baggage as a result of being prominent in the public sphere for so long, framing that as good or bad will be part of her campaign strategy.

        • downtownla

          Hillary doesn’t need baggage. She has bad policies: she is pro-war, pro-Wall Street, pro-Keystone pipeline. She doesn’t support bringing back Glass Steagall. She secretly supports the TPP and other bad trade deals. And she only came out for marriage equality in 2013. If those are all positions you support, then vote for her. But I know a lot of Democrats, progressives and greens who don’t like those stances.

          • Randy Ellicott

            Wow not sure where you got my full fledged endorsement for Hillary out of what I said… I, like I hope most intelligent and thoughtful voters, am waiting and watching all the candidates to see what their positions and policies will be. And then when the time comes i will make the most informed decision i can. Blindly supporting Hillary or blindly NOT supporting Hillary over a year out from the election is foolish at best. I would urge you to keep an open mind and cut back on the caffeine, or you will never make it to next November.

          • downtownla

            Unfortunately, the train is already moving and we can’t really wait. Decisions are already being made that impact the playing field. For instance, the Democrats are only holding 6 debates. Last time they had 20. Why is that? I think it’s because the party is trying to limit discussions and any opportunity for other candidates to be seen side-by-side against Hillary. I also wouldn’t say that I am not “blindly NOT supporting Hillary. I think I have researched and read up enough that I know her policies will not provide the fundamental change we need in this country. I have a pretty good sense of the people she will be hiring for her staff, as well as putting in her cabinet. Just check out her list of advisors. It’s not a prescription for change. You don’t have to wait. All the information is out there, if you want to look for it. Sadly, most Americans, even the intelligent ones, have a million other things going in their lives and don’t really pay attention until after a lot of things have been decided for them. And it’s not November, it’s actually the Iowa caucuses which are only 5-6 months away.

    • gaylib

      “baggage” is a right wing meme. It is discouraging to see commenters on a progressive site using wingnut propaganda.

      • MickinDetroit

        baggage may be a meme but it’s an apt one. you don’t spend 4 decades in DC without collecting a large matched set.

      • Bob Black

        I view the entire Clinton legacy as “baggage”, and I am as Progressive as they come! Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell and the Defense of Marriage Act chief among her bags. BOTH of the Clintons have demonstrated that they will sell out an entire group of Americans in the long-term in order to get something they want in the short-term. I am most certainly NOT referring to the same bags that the GOP is, but I hope someone else comes to the fore in the Democratic race to the nomination. I saw, with my own eyes, her answer to a question at a deposition where when asked if she kept any kind of diary or journal, perhaps for future historians or biographers, of her time as First Lady she replied “Oh no, that’s something that could be subpoenaed!” The moment I saw that I was done with her. She is more concerned about being sued than she is with her legacy or our future. She is a shady lawyer in bed with big banks and Wall Street tycoons.

    • Mark

      I keep hoping he put on the gloves and come out swinging. Trump is getting all the attention just for all the bitch slapping. O’Malley needs to take notes on how to move from last place to first place – reformulate – and put the peddle to the metal. Folk songs ain’t gonna cut it.

  • bkmn

    One poll does not make a trend. Especially if as Mike MGB pointed out, may be biased.

  • Terry Teeter

    Still not decided what this will mean going forward but if it’s what triggers the Bill/Hill attack machinery they used on the President in 07 and 08 I’ll be writing her off.

    • downtownla

      Hillary knows she has a ceiling on her favorability. If she makes it out of the Democratic primary, she knows the only way she can win is by slashing and burning the Republican candidate. Some people think, “eh, that’s just politics.” Others are tired of that and want a change.

    • Steve Teeter

      I don’t run into many Teeters. Who you?

  • Silver Badger

    The Republican hate machine hasn’t had much chance to lie about Bernie, yet.

    • CA2015

      They want him to weaken Hillary during the primaries. Heck, they may even run positive things about him. If he were to win the nomination, then they would unleash the full “we can’t have a socialist!” attack on him.

      What plays well for Bernie in small towns in New Hampshire and mostly left-leaning Portland, Ore. will not translate to many other swing areas.

      • gaylib

        I like Hillary, but I have to admit they did the same for her in 2008. As the primaries slogged on there was more and more glowing press about her from the republican side because they wanted to keep the democratic rift going into the general election.

      • downtownla

        You may be right, but Democrats did the same thing with Reagan. Oh he’s too conservative to win. Well, how did that turn out?

        • MickinDetroit

          reagan winning had more to do with Carter being an all around terrible president than underestimating Reagan. He barely lost to Ford in 76…he wasn’t some unkown coming out of nowhere.

          The anti washington anti big government liberal democrat sentiment is what propelled him to office. Much of that is back and fueling the Trump and R campaigns this year. It’s not going to help bernie

          • downtownla

            Yes, Carter had issues. But the voters were willing to give this new guy a chance, even though they knew he was probably a little more conservative than they were themselves. What I am saying is that American electorate is more open to alternate opinions than the mainstream media thinks. They don’t need someone to think exactly like them. What they need is someone they can trust and who will stand up for what they believe in. Sadly, the media (and many Democrats) assume America will never vote for a socialist, but we won’t know that until we actually try.

          • MickinDetroit

            run a socialist and get ready for a President Cruz. That isn’t to say the vast majority of those that will elect Cruz wouldn’t benefit from a shit load of socialism. the problem is the vast majority of the american electorate is very, very stupid and year in and year out votes against their own self interest.

          • downtownla

            We said the same thing about marriage equality. Oh, the American public will never go for that. But the American public can vote for a socialist if we go out and make the argument for progressive values. The Democrats seem to have given up. Instead they say, “Oh Americans would never vote for a leftie” so we should nominate the most centrist/right candidate. That is not a recipe for long-term success. And if you look at the map, Bernie just has to hold the states that have voted Democratic in the last six presidential elections. That’s 18 states including CA, NY, IL, MI, PA, NJ, MD, etc. that come up with 242 electoral votes. The Democratic nominee just needs 28 more to win. You don’t think Bernie would play in FL with its huge Jewish American vote? Or even CO or VA or NH? Sure, it will be tough, but it’s not the lost cause that others seem to think so.

          • MickinDetroit

            the american public DIDN”T go for gay marriage. The American Court system did….just barely and the rest of the country is basically 5050onm the question if gay marriage comes with the right not to be barred from public accommodations.

            I can tell you right now, Bernie will not hold michigan. HRC is going to struggle here. Alot more of that D map comes into play if a socialist were the D nominee. Florida will go red… because…SOCIALISM. I’m not disagreeing that Bernie sanders doesn’t bring some good to the table, just saying he’s unelectible once the Socialist moniker is carved into stone and mentioned in every.single.story about him from here on out.

          • downtownla

            Polling after polling shows that the American public has moved on marriage equality. It even won at the ballot boxes in MN, MD and ME. Give it a few more years and it would win in every state, including MI. The courts just sped up what was inevitable. As for Bernie holding MI in the D column, I have faith that he can. His populist message will resonate, especially with his votes against NAFTA, CAFTA and PPP which have all damaged MI. He has winnable arguments, you just have to have faith. I remain optimistic in Bernie and I remain optimistic in the American public. I was born in Detroit, raised in the suburbs and went to college in Ann Arbor. I remain optimistic about my fellow Michiganders, too.

      • noni

        They’ll do the same to Hillary.

        Then she’ll have to pander to Republican voters to undo the damage and show she has the republican creds.

        Then we’ll have the traditional choice of a Republican or the other Republican.

  • Peter Wde
    • If you have to quote NR, you’re nuts.

      We knew that, though.

      • Peter Wde

        I know, a psychology graduate (with honors even!) is much too intellectual for NR.

        • Just keep mocking it. At least I *have* something.

          • Peter Wde

            Indeed, and what a “something” that is!

          • Vague, retrograde, full of detritus.

            TROLL.

          • Peter Wde

            You mean like a psychology degree (with honors!)?

    • gaylib

      The email story is BS it is a continual rehashing of the same tired, non story over and over again. I’m sure she was more than happy to turn the email server over to the feds so that she doesn’t have to hear Trey Gowdy constantly harping about it. I don’t blame her for not wanting to turn it over to that crowd given the lies they’ve already spread about her.

      • Peter Wde

        HRC “handed” over the server = hand it over or it will be seized.

      • MickinDetroit

        the interesting portion is that it was handed over after it was wiped….so it basically pours gasoline on the fire by now making it look like something was hidden or destroyed.

  • Mark

    i certainly hope some amazing underdog comes from somewhere! So far, all of them – right or left – just seem to be a rung or two down from where we’ve been.

    maybe i’m just dreaming or hallucinating…or delusion has finally taken hold…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVtaVrUAPK0

  • BobVT
  • GlennF

    Bernie Sanders is bad news for the Democrats in this campaign. Yes he has a very good voting record as a U.S. Senator. But as a candidate for President in this crucial 2016 campaign, he’s trouble.

    In the primaries, he weakens Clinton. If he wins the nomination, he gets crushed in the general election.

    He’s too old.

    He has no personal charisma.

    He’s not a Democrat.

    He’s a self proclaimed Socialist.

    Again, bad news for the Democrats.

    • Though, polls (for what they’re worth) have him in there with a punter’s chance against all the Repub candidates, even this early in the game.

      • gaylib

        That’s because nobody is going after him yet. He would be crushed in a general election. Hillary has a secret weapon: women. She can not lose and they are terrified of her hence polls commissioned by republicans to try to take her out in the primary.

        • I guess it’s because I live in a shitty part of OH, but I’m not seeing a buncha Hillary support among women. In fact, it’s a buncha right-wing women in this part of the world. Wonder how that extrapolates to the rest of the state?

          • Let me update that: “Right wing women who listen to their husbands.”

    • downtownla

      Try again. Actual polling from Colorado, Iowa and Virginia shows that Bernie does just as well, if not better than Hillary in those swing states… Hillary has no crossover appeal to Republicans and/or Independents and she is not exciting the Democratic base. Who exactly do you think is going to go out to vote for her? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/reason-1-to-vote-bernie-sanders_b_7863524.html

    • Dealt

      Hillary is not going to survive this time. It’s over for her and I’m GLAD!

  • Hillary has learned from 2008. Then, she thought she was coasting to a coronation and spent early on things like first class accommodations, while Barack ran a grass roots campaign that swept past her.

    Bernie is running a grass roots campaign – and he is generating enthusiasm. If he can get through the “white progressive” barrier with the POC community (and there are signs that, despite a bit of a rockiness, he is moving in that direction), he *could* be the nominee – and *could* get elected.

    However, Hillary is smart, capable and qualified, and will be motivated to win – and unless she stumbles, I do think that having a good run with Bernie in the primaries will get her ready to take on whoever survives the GOP slugfest.

  • John Calendo

    Love Bernie…and in another way, love the Trump run…but Americans don’t elect angry people. No hotheads running things. Elizabeth Warren would have been the perfect candidate, but she made other calculations. Perhaps she thinks Hill will lose, and then the way would be clear for Warren to run in 2020.

    • pablo

      I don’t think that Warren has ambitions to be president. Of course that would make her the ideal president.

      • Hup

        It’s a tragedy that Elizabeth Warren has no ambition to run for president because she would kill it across the board.

  • Dealt

    Is anyone planning on voting for Hillary Clinton? If so, why her and not Bernie Sanders who is obviously the better candidate >He has been a consistent, non war mongering, ethical politician. Is it just because she is a woman?
    A democrat who votes for Hillary is not a democrat.

    • No, it’s called “We understand how SCOTUS works.”

      • Dealt

        What’s wrong with Bernie Sanders in your opinion? I just don’t get how progressive liberals could even think to vote for Hillary.

        • MickinDetroit

          what’s wrong with him? he’s unelectible in a national election. that’s a bit of a problem.

          • Dealt

            You don’t know that. They said the same thing about Barack Obama 9 years ago. Hillary is such a little devil. Lol, wow – she’s got you all in the palms of her hands.

          • Bit of a blanket statement there.

          • MickinDetroit

            the only thing that needs to be said is “socialist”. it has already defined him… he’ll lose every red and purple state. Winning the NE libertarian/socialist/independant vote isn’t going to make up for losing everything between NE and the west coast.

          • …and you think he’d lose California? Really? The only reason that happened to Dukakis was because Ray-Gun was from there.

          • MickinDetroit

            I said “between the NE and the west coast”. howver, considering how the prop8 vote went during Obama’s election…. I don’t think Bernie is a lock there either. we already know the black progs have their knives out for bernie.

          • Hup

            Please keep your racism off this thread. Thank you.

          • MickinDetroit

            How is it racist to point out the POC progressives are upset with the white liberal progs dominating the discusion?

          • Hup

            Ugh? What?
            Generalizations are not created using exceptions. Generally speaking progressives who happen to be POC largely support Bernie Sanders, I’m one of them.
            Also, and this goes for a lot of things – a progressive is default white, but if it’s a black person they HAVE to be called black progs, right?
            Like I said, keep your racism out of this thread, it’s nauseating.

          • Concern troll.

          • Hup

            Sorry Cody, I keep forgetting ! Black people have no business talking about or participating in American politics. Silly me! Especially during election cycles.

          • Ya don’t have any right telling us that we should feel “shame”…that sorta idea ain’t gonna fly.

            You’re as much a damn victim mentality as the Christofascists, especially with that level of hyperbole. Which is funny, because you just took ME to task over something similar.

          • Hup

            “You” can’t tell “Us”

            But I’m also half-white. That means I’m technically one of you guys.

            Is that okay?

          • I’m 1/16 Native American, because of my grampa’s grandma…or somesuch. Been 20 years since I’ve asked.

            So?

          • CottonBlimp

            I don’t think I’ve ever met someone from the south or Midwest that *wasn’t* 1/16 Native American.

          • Ha 🙂 There’s probably some truth there.

            Which is funny when 3 of my 4 grandparents are from Kentucky (and I’m not sure about my dad’s mama. I think she’s from Huron County.)

          • MickinDetroit

            omfg. how are we to discuss the issue of a racial rift in the prog world without actually using racial identifiers?

          • Hup

            You can do that but please use qualifiers like some, or then it appears you’re making it out that all progressives who are POC have their knives out for Bernie.

          • MickinDetroit

            here’s how it was explained to me by a black progressive here in Detroit that isn’t a supporter of Bernie or HRC…. black progs are worried about their kids (especially their boys) getting shot by the police while also having no police in their neighborhoods to protect them from the thugs and no other services for that matter…. White liberals are upset about “Wall street” screwing over their 401ks, and social issues like gay marriage and abortion.

            Not endorsing the view….just saying that seems to be a widely shared perspective.

          • This exchange is exactly how/why OA206 received the crap it did. Right here.

          • MickinDetroit

            well, this is detroit where race based politics is supreme. If it isn’t black v white, it’s city v suburb…which is basically the same thing.

          • MickinDetroit

            I loathe hillary clinton. I find to her exemplify every single thing that is wrong with DC and politics in general. She however, is the most electable and at least will appoint less conservative scotus justices. (not that she’ll actually appoint real liberals…but the alternative is just so much worse)

          • downtownla

            Check again. Bernie is more electable than Hillary. She has no crossover appeal to Republicans or Independents. Just check out these swing state polls of IA, CO and VA. Bernie actually does better than Hillary. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/reason-1-to-vote-bernie-sanders_b_7863524.html

          • Eric in Oakland

            “Check again. Bernie is more electable than Hillary. She has no crossover appeal to Republicans or Independents.”

            You really think a self-proclaimed socialist who wants to expand government has crossover appeal to Republicans?

          • GreatLakeSailor

            Yes. The few that ain’t gone full teabag. That’s probably true with Clinton too.

            But that ain’t the best place to mine gold – it’s the 40% of the electorate that is disengaged, Working People – that’s where the win is, and yes, Sanders will turn out those folks more than any other candidate, and when turn-out goes up, Dems win.

          • Eric in Oakland

            I doubt there are a significant number of voters who identify as Republican that would vote for a someone who wants to expand the scope of government programs. I’ve yet to meet a single republican (Teabagger or otherwise) who doesn’t think the programs are already too large.

          • GreatLakeSailor

            As I stated in my response, I don’t see cross-over R’s (ie people that will vote and have voted R in the past) as a significant source of D votes – hence ‘no gold to mine there’ – so really so what?

          • downtownla

            Yes, just check his last re-election in VT. 71% of the voters re-elected him. There’s gotta be a lot of Republicans there. It’s also why he’s gone to places like Dallas, Houston, Phoenix and New Orleans. And in his appeal, he asks the attendees to reach out to the Republican friends and family to support his campaign. I think it’s from experience that he knows his message is able to crossover. The fact that Bernie also consistently ranks at the top when it comes to issues of honesty and trustworthiness will factor in. I’ve heard quite a few Republicans say, “Well, at least he admits he’s a socialist.” The thing that a lot of these moderate Republicans hate most about Democrats is a sense that Democrats are lying about their true socialist ambitions. With Bernie, he can say, “Yes, I am. So what?” And that gets him a few points in their book.

          • Eric in Oakland

            I’ve heard quite a few Republicans say, “Well, at least he admits he’s a socialist.”

            And I’ve heard a lot of Democrats say of a politician, “Well, at least he admits he’s a theocrat.” Neither of these backhanded compliments indicates a willingness to vote for the politician discussed.

          • downtownla

            In an age where trust for politicians are at an all time low, it will. I was at the Bernie Sanders rally in Phoenix. The woman behind me said this was the first political rally she had ever been to. She also said that if Bernie doesn’t win, she would support Trump. Don’t underestimate the deep level of anger and mistrust that is out there towards establishment politicians. The American public is disgusted with Washington and they are getting desperate to try anything, even the fucking socialist.

          • Beanhead

            Of course Bernie is more electable but some people think Queen Hillary somehow is owed the presidency, which is sick.

          • downtownla

            I also think a lot of Democrats are afraid because they have bought into the meme that this is conservative country who will never elect a socialist. But just like the whole marriage equality debate, our arguments are winnable. It just takes talking to people and doing the hard work of persuasion. Most Democrats sound as if they’ve given up on even trying to convince people that the progressive positions are better and that we should just elect the most centrist/right candidate. I don’t believe that. I think the American public can be on our side with the issues. We just have to make the case.

          • Johnny Marz

            Recent PPP polls disagree with you.

          • MickinDetroit

            ..yes those are the same that have Trump leading the R field and beating HRC and Sanders by 9 in Missouri and elsewhere? well, let’s just swear trump in now then shall we?

            no one is looking at Bernie in any way other than to be a spoiler to HRC. The second he gains anything more than novelty attention, it will be all “socialism” all day long and that will be the end of that.

          • GreatLakeSailor

            Can you provide a link to polls showing Teh Donald beating HRC and Sanders (separately) in a national head to head please.

          • MickinDetroit

            .OP cited recent PPP polling. Iowa and Missouri polls came out this morning. Trump beats clinton and sanders in that state.

            Clinton and Sanders trail all of the Republicans in the state by margins ranging from 7 to 15 points.

            We found on our Iowa poll that Clinton and Bernie Sanders weren’t faring that different from each other in general election match ups against the Republicans and that trend presents itself in Missouri as well. Sanders does worse than Clinton against Bush, trailing 47/34. But his 15 point deficit against Rubio (48/33) is the same as Clinton’s, his 9 point deficit against Trump (48/39) is the same as Clinton’s

            pre-debate PPP…
            We also tested Bernie Sanders against the key Republicans and he trails all of themexcept Trump. His deficits are 7 points against Jeb Bush (44/37), 5 points against MarcoRubio (41/36), and 1 point against Scott Walker (40/39). Against Trump, Sanders leads
            47/37. On average Sanders does 8 points worse than Clinton against the Republicans in these head to head match ups.

            I was being a bit sarcastic, but If we’re going to cite polls as argument at this ridiculously early stage….let’s look at them all. Bernie doesn’t fair well. He’ll fair even worse once the socialist tag gets permanently affixed to him and is mentioned in every article about him from now on.

          • GreatLakeSailor

            Fair enough, thanks for the info. Does this info, at least as much as a single poll can, undermine your Sanders/Clinton general election electability argument? Or was your comment that neither Clinton nor Sanders are electable in the general?

          • MickinDetroit

            I’m just saying that sanders is as electable as donald trump is in a national election. The base may be gaga over them, but they’re not going to turn out enough of the rest to win and once they get into “legitimate” candidate territory, they’ll be destroyed by the establishment press. This country isn’t going to elect anyone that once or EVER called themselves a socialist. (no matter if being a socialist would actually be a good thing for the vast majority of the electorate)

        • Not a damn thing. But I’m being pragmatic here. Either one is fine.

          SCOTUS is the big arena for what we’re looking to accomplish.

    • pablo

      I prefer Bernie, but electability is an issue. I’m just not yet convinced that he’s unelectable.

      • Johnny Marz

        Recent PPP polls have shown Bernie is stronger against ALL Republicans currently running.

        • While that’s true, it’s also because, as a few people have mentioned, the national Republican Machine hasn’t had a chance to work on him yet. Give those howler monkeys 6 months to fling some crap and see how things go.

  • The 5 dozen comments on this thread are telling.

    If we shoot ourselves in the foot by out-bitching ourselves and end up losing the ’16 election, we deserve everything a Republican government will put into place. Hell, I wouldn’t mind a few of us LGBTs being led to the stocks, if it makes us wake the hell up and stop throwing away golden opportunities to maybe make a *little* headway.

    This is *exactly* why we lose. We’re almost *worse* than the children of the Retrogressive Party.

    • Hup

      If Hillary Clinton wins the primaries of course I would vote for her in the general election, but I’m definitely focusing on Bernie Sanders winning and I’ve already donated to his campaign. Stop being a bully. It’s only the primary season. Let us see how things play out. It’s the American Way.

      • A bully? Really? Read a few comments downthread.

        • Hup

          “Hell, I wouldn’t mind a few of us LGBTs being led to the stocks”….
          ….Is a totally gross, immature thing to say and you should be ashamed.

          • Oh, whine, whine.

            One thing I don’t take kindly to is people who complain about imagery.

            I DO NOT FEEL SHAME. #Carlin

          • Hup

            If you’re indicative of the typical Hillary supporter, it’s no wonder she is having a hard time right now.
            Have a nice day !

          • “Have a nice day” = “Fuck you.”

            I know the game.

          • I support *whomever* has a (D) out front. Could be a damn plant, such as that that Lew Black mentioned 15 years ago.

          • Hup

            Wow, Really? I did not think that at all.
            oO

  • Peter Wde

    “Hillary Rodham Clinton told a cheering crowd at her largest rally so far that “the endless flow of secret, unaccountable money” must be stopped. Two weeks later, the main super PAC backing her bid for the Democratic presidential nomination accepted a $1 million contribution that cannot be traced.”

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/59d09696f3b74b258430f278182f14a9/group-backing-hillary-clinton-gets-1m-anonymous-donors

  • j.martindale

    I like Bernie, but he is the Rethug choice for the Democratic nomination. He is too old and can be easily painted as too extreme–SOCIALIST!!! He may do well in the Northeast, but he will not do well in most of the rest of the country.

    • Hup

      God Bless the Northeast, sigh.

  • j.martindale

    I like Hillary. She isn’t my second choice. I think she has a better understanding of congress and politics than any other Democratic contender, including Bernie. If he did win, I doubt that he could work with Congress. He wouldn’t have the support of the Democratic party as a whole. He rejected the party’s appeals to join for decades. He is so far to the left in terms of his voting history that I believe half the party would reject him. Clinton has a broad range of international experience which I believe prepares her better than Sanders for the presidential bid. She is a woman. I have a daughter and four granddaughters. It is well past time for a woman president. I want Hillary to be a role model for them, as well. She has been universally good on social issues.

    She has some baggage with the Iraq war. That is a complicated issue–an issue in part because she didn’t want to be painted as the “weak woman politician.” Her problems with Wall Street were compounded by the fact that she was the Senator from New York.

    But she is a consummate politician who is my choice for the office. There don’t seem to be many of us speaking up and saying so, but she is NOT my default candidate. She is my choice.

    • GreatLakeSailor

      Your 3rd & 4th sentences don’t match reality.

      • j.martindale

        That is interesting, since I simply offered them as my thoughts and my doubts. Please tell me, since you have a better grasp of reality than I, what my thoughts and doubts are, then.

        • GreatLakeSailor

          Maybe reread my post. I didn’t claim to know your thoughts so let’s wrap that red herring in yesterday’s newspaper and toss it out.

          I think she has a better understanding of congress and politics than any other Democratic contender, including Bernie. If he did win, I doubt that he could work with Congress.

          I did claim that your professed thoughts conveniently ignore Sanders’ 25 year tenure in Congress and his ability to get difficult bills passed, say for instance last year’s VA bill through a deeply divided Congress.

          • j.martindale

            Do some work on your reading comprehension. This is what I think. These are my doubts. You can assert whatever you want about what YOU think are his credentials and his ability to overcome what I see to be his deficits. But don’t go saying that is “reality.”

          • GreatLakeSailor

            Fair enough. Your emotive “I believe” framing does insulate your statement from any and all critical analysis.

            Well played. I’ll just drop this image inspired by Bertrand Russell.
            https://benjumea.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/teterarussell.gif

          • j.martindale

            If you wish to argue the validity of your “critical analysis,” as you claim it to be, don’t begin with the assertion you possess the single true perception of reality. There are plenty of philosophers who I am sure would challenge your grasp of that.

  • Eebadee-eebadee-thatsallfolks

    We’re still a long way from New Hampshire, but more interesting than this specific poll, IMO, are the many polls that show Bernie doing just as well or within a few points of how Hillary would do in hypothetical match-ups with various Republicans. They would both trounce Trump by double-digits. So the “electability” argument in favor of Hillary doesn’t really pan out. Now the campaign war che$t argument, there Hillary has a huge advantage.

    • GreatLakeSailor

      She has the Oligarchs’ Money (they have her ear), but Bernie has that other “m”…what is it…oh yeah, the Masses. Bernie goes to the General, the turn out of otherwise disengaged Working People will be epic.
      Seattle – 15k
      Portland – 28k
      LA – 27.5k

      • MickinDetroit

        …and thats 73 EV votes between Cali, Wash and Oregon. Turnout of hyper engaged teabaggers negates that as texas florida and ohio are 81.

        • GreatLakeSailor

          Texas – yeah, likely
          Florida – mmm, maybe, we’ll see.
          Ohio – !?!? rust belt Ohio!? I’m no where near ready to concede Ohio.

          • MickinDetroit

            Ohio…whose hard right R governor currently is a potus candidate Ohio.

          • GreatLakeSailor

            Ohio that went “D” in the last 2 presidential elections, yes.

          • MickinDetroit

            by 2% the last time around.. and without a AA guy running in a historic first are we going to see urban areas turn out at historic record levels to eek out that victory?

          • GreatLakeSailor

            I don’t know if D’s will win Ohio, but I sure as hell ain’t gonna put it in the red column yet. Bernie, with his record against the scam of “free trade” is a powerful draw. I live in rust belt Wisconsin (you, I assume in Detroit), and there is palpable animosity among my working class neighbors for the scam repeatedly sold as “free” trade (these folks often skip voting because they feel like picking either candidate means endorsing shipping their jobs overseas – they just don’t cotton to the lesser evil when both choices lead to job loss).

            That disengaged 40% of the electorate that feels politically impotent has a very sound reason to think a Sanders Administration will not sell them out like every. single. administration. has since Saint Ronzo of the Raygun.

  • Queequeg

    I took one of those “who should I vote for” tests. I was 94% aligned with Bernie Sanders, but 93% with Hillary Clinton. Having said that, I think Hillary is the more viable candidate, so I’ll vote for her in the primary. I don’t think Bernie could win enough uncommitted votes, and it is critical that we keep the Republicans out of the White House.

    • MasterBlaster

      I got 99% for Bernie 😀

      • Queequeg

        I really like him. As mentioned, though, I don’t think he could win the general election.

        • Charles Manuel P.

          So vote for the Democratic version of Romney 3.0? An uninspiring, divisive candidate, that nobody likes in the name of all paramount Victory? As we all know, that carries it’s own danger. “Electablility” never got anyone elected….

          • Queequeg

            I understand what you are talking about, but the worst case is another Bush presidency, or sny of the Republican candidates for that matter.

    • GreatLakeSailor

      I took a survey too: Sanders ~ 98%; Clinton ~ 87%.

      On the surface, I’d be plenty happy with 87%, but here’s the thing: I don’t believe that Clinton would actually champion the economic & Empire positions she espouses. Like Obama, she talks a good game, but it’s all kayfabe. On what did Obama actually do a full-court press? fast-track TPP/TISA/TAFTA, NSA, drones, CitiGroup ReIndemnification Amendment. To his credit, O did a F-CP on gun magazine size. He lost, but stood tall and fought the moral fight.

      Bernie on the other hand has a 3+ decade track record of championing the very same economic issues he is now promising to champion as President…4+ decades for social justice issues. For me, that’s real cred.

      • Queequeg

        I’d like to see Bernie become president, but how likely do you think it will be? If he gets the nomination, I’m afraid of President Rubio, or worse yet, another President Bush. Perhaps I’m being too cautious.

        • GreatLakeSailor

          I think you’re not taking into account the name recognition & message familiarity that will increase in the run up to the elections. Folks like us, that comment on the interwebs about policy & politics, are already familiar with Sanders, but we are not the norm. As Sanders introduces himself, his record and his plans/platform, I think* his numbers will go up.

          *I’ve been wrong before, but since the election is sometime off, I say we play this thing out for a while and see where it goes. I’ll not concede the good fight without, well, a fight.

  • Frank Dash

    You can bet that Koch money is flowing into the Sanders campaign in some form. Republicans know that this is their chance for a spoiler and to take complete control of the country.

    • noni

      Possibly.

      However it is just as possible that Kochs want you to think that Sanders is a spoiler.

      Vote for who you think would make the best president.

  • Eebadee-eebadee-thatsallfolks

    For the first time in a long, long time, I am equally comfortable with all the Democratic candidates. I really like where the party is at more than any one specific candidate, and I really can’t stand what the Republican party has become, regardless of who they end up picking. I would vote for O’Malley, Chafee, Hillary or Bernie (or Biden or Warren) gladly over any of the 17 clowns. I guess I’m almost primed for a European-style election where they vote for parties (who present lists) rather than individual candidates. It’s been a long, long, long time since I felt this way, but the Republicans have finally convinced me that they are ALL unqualified stinkers and I need have no qualms about voting a straight (D) ballot.

    Of course, some pundits would probably say that’s yet another sign of how polarized the nation has become and how little of a “center” there is left in American politics.

  • I’m really leaning toward Bernie more and more these days. But there is one thing that concerns me, and that’s the reaction from women in the Democratic Party. Back in 2008 there were a LOT of women who held a pretty significant grudge against Barack Obama, whom they saw as usurping Hillary Clinton and the chance to elect the First Woman President. Hell hath no fury ….

    • Beanhead

      Didn’t you get the memo? Genders don’t exist anymore so what you’re saying is moot 😛

    • Six Pins Delores

      Friendly with several of the Democratic women of NH and only one is a major supporter of Hillary.

    • Kelso

      Where has Hillary been for U.S. women on the assault against Planned Parenthood, Hobby Lobby, Sandra Fluke etc? I know she’s a great supporter of global women’s rights, but it’s crickets it seems when it comes to what American women are facing, except when it concerns just her (shattering glass ceilings 2008).

  • Toasterlad

    Wow. The DLC types are out in FORCE today. Sanders has them shitting their pants. Wait til he actually wins a state primary!

  • noni

    The Harriet Christians are out in force today

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5unWHvq9ysI

  • noni

    Hillary needs to know she has some competition.

    Although so far she hasn’t given up her republican friendly agenda.

  • BrianQTD

    I prefer Bernie and I’ll support him in the primaries. HRC is a corporate hack and a foreign policy hawk, which means the left will have a lot of work to do to keep her from doing something really destructive. But HRC has more experience and her machinery (for better or worse) can deal with attacks from the Right. She has experience with being under attack–not to mention extensive political experience. I want Bernie on her team, and while it would be nice to see him in a cabinet position, he needs to stay right where he is as a gadfly in the Senate. Same with Elizabeth Warren.

  • Gerry Fisher

    Politics isn’t just about you as a candidate. It’s being able to speak into the current zeitgeist as a way to rally and lead people. Bernie’s doing it. Let’s see if Hillary can adjust and do it without looking like a complete flip-flopper and panderer.

  • Cody

    If they don’t pull it together we will have President Trump.

  • Bill_Perdue

    In fighting is fun. BS could win it, but if he did he’d just be another Obama – a right centrist who uses populism to cover his ass while he busts unions, supports the zionist bunkerstaat and wars of aggression to secure oil and other resources and someone who refuses to take on the root causes of racism, sexism and homophobia.